Amnesty In America

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by DanaC

duck duck isn't from China. She's from Hong Kong.

You don't own it anymore, China does, which I'm sure you know. They've decided it's in their interest to keep it as a decadent, westernized, tool. That, however, could be revoked in a heartbeat, because they own it lock, stock and barrel.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

What does that have to do with the Marshall Plan?

What does the Marshall Plan have to do with our current situation?

[skysidhe]

Originally Posted by NoBoxes

Eventually a movie will be made about this and it will be called ... The Amnestyville Horror.

lol

Why don't we just let car thieves just use the cars after a while... perhaps just charge them a fine? I mean, if they are going to be driving them to work and all, why not?

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by tw

Even where ever I consult, they still want those numbers and forms. I may only do a job for a couple of weeks. They still want those numbers and forms - just like they want from their immigrant workers.

You live in a dream world. On a more concrete note, you live nowhere near the Mexican border.

The illegal immigrants that everyone is arguing over are not consulting for engineering firms. They are installing insulation and cutting hedges and painting buildings. And yes, they are paid in cash, both by small business owners and by individuals. I have personally hired a total of five people I strongly suspect to be illegal immigrants to do work for me on 3 different occasions that I can think of in just the last year. I paid cash. They don't really work any cheaper than the American laborers, the only difference is they don't have a general contractor standing in between us taking a cut.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

You live in a dream world. On a more concrete note, you live nowhere near the Mexican border.

Those who hate illegal immigrants must now condemn you with same vigor. You have done things illegal. In the eyes of those who fear immigrants, you are now no different than those immigrants. Both have violated 'the laws'.

Shame on you for so hating America as to pay them in cash - according to the same logic used to hate illegal immigrants.

Or maybe illegal immigrants were never the problem. Problem is found in laws that have little relationship to reality. Reality - we need those immigrants by the millions - both in labors from Latin America, students from the Middle East, AND the many from India and China in the Silicon Valley. What do some of us advocate? Hate them all even thought 'they' are more important to America's future than many current Americans. Send them back where they come from. Screw free market principles. Screw those who would otherwise make America so productive. That is Bruce's reasoning.

Makes no difference if the worker is a corporate worker, engineer, hedge trimmer, or a nanny. If they are employed, then the employer must collect government paper work - or also be illegal. Bruce, et al conveniently forget that to justify hate of immigrants.

I have no problem with Clodfobble paying regular employees in cash. But those with a draconian allegiance to laws must now hate you for acting in the tradition of free markets - hiring anyone and paying them in cash. "Because it is the law" justifies hate of immigrants. The law is so screwed up that we need 1.8 mllion illegals just for agriculture. And millions more for installing insulation and cutting hedges and painting buildings. The solution? Fix the laws and ignore the hate promoted by Bruce.

So what is this dream world? It is also called reality. The only way a regular employee can be paid in cash - no withholding or no government filings - is when the employer is also acting illegal. Even homeowners with nannies must file government tax forms for that employee - if all laws must be imposed and justify Bruce's draconian attitude.

Where illegals are employed regularly, then taxes are withheld. Where illegals are not paying taxes, well, we only have stupid laws (and those who love those stupid laws) for creating that problem. In every case, its not the illegal immigrants that are the problem. The problem are so many who just hate immigrants and the hide behind phony reasoning such as "because it is the law". More important should be "because we need them". Anything less is the 'dream world' reasoning that Bruce is posting.

Drive out the illegal immigrants - and the local economy goes recessionary. Why? Those illegals represent a most productive part of America's economy and the source of America's most productive future workers.

Why do we not let car thieves use the cars? Because unlike illegal immigrants, car thieves are not some of America's most productive workers and most important for America's future.

How do you know who car thieves are? Perhaps they need it to get to work.
I love how obeying the law is draconian... too funny.

[halley]

Originally Posted by skysidhe

I am confused about this bill that is going to pass the Senate.
I have alot of questions. Please comment on your vote. Thank you

Lots of questions about this bill.

How will this bill be implemented?

---if given legal status, how will we know that they are really who they say they are, even if they have to provide a birth certificate which many will not have or produce? What does “legal status” mean?

—most of them have used fraudulent documents, some stolen, doesn’t this make them a felon and will they be pardoned or forgiven?

—how will a background check be done and what will be credible if we do not know who they really are. What will happen those who do not pass the background check, will they be deported and “separated from their families?” I am sure that their home countries will not cooperate.

—national ID care will not be credible.

—tax invasion is a crime, will those who owe back taxes be pardoned and forgiven and how will it be determined how much taxes is owe and by whom?

—if the cut-off date is 5 years, what is going to happen to them, deportation?

–-the $5,000 fine will never happen because down the line it will be disposed of.

This is going to be a nightmare to implement.
I got the feeling that many will not come out of the “shadows.”
If it can be implemented, it will not be easy and it is not going to be credible.
I don’t see how it will pass. But with corporate American owning our government it very well might.
The senate has a lot of debating to do for it to get to the house and Palosi is not comfortable with it and neither are many democrats and republicans.


I just heard Carlos Gueiterrez say the cut off date to qualify for the “Z Visa” is January1, 2007. The date keep going up. What will happen to those who come in after Jan 1,2007? Will they be rounded up and deported? And what will happen to those who do not pass the background check. They will not come forward out of the shadows. Will we have to look for them and when they are found, what will we do with them.. This can become expensive for the tax payer.
It would be so much easier and cheaper if we just go after the employer that hire them and stop them for hiring illegals. They will go home or immigrate elsewhere.

[halley]

Originally Posted by bluecuracao

Well, the bill doesn't involve amnesty for one thing. There's a large fine proposed, along with a few other things. What are your questions?

Legal status is instant amnesty. Legal status means they will have all the rights and benefits as a citizen.
$5,000 is not a fine. Citizenship is not for sale and there is only one way to get it and they is by following the same laws that every one else does.
They have 8 years to pay the fine. Back taxes is forgiven. Why would they want citizenship if they already have legal status?
Nothing will happen if this bill is passed but amnesty through legal status. We will never see the fine implemented, work place enforcement or the border secure.
It did not happen in 1986. Why would we believe it would happen today.
This bill will never pass with a so called path to citizenshp.
There is not one set of laws for one group of people and another set for another. We all play by the same rules.

[bluecuracao]

I'm curious--what is your definition of a fine, halley?

According to the bill, it would be a fine. There would be no "instant amnesty;" temporary legal status would only be obtained by acknowledgement of law-breaking and paying a $1000 fine, and passing a background check.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by tw

snip~
Screw those who would otherwise make America so productive. That is Bruce's reasoning.

tw lies. That is neither what I think or what I wrote. Bring in what we need, but DOCUMENT them. Is that so fucking hard to comprehend?

Makes no difference if the worker is a corporate worker, engineer, hedge trimmer, or a nanny. If they are employed, then the employer must collect government paper work - or also be illegal. Bruce, et al conveniently forget that to justify hate of immigrants.

Earth to tw, you are stating what the rules are, which are routinely ignored. If they all followed the rules, they wouldn't be here in the first place. And stick the hate card up your ass, it is not your prerogative to tell me who I hate.

Fix the laws and ignore the hate promoted by Bruce.

Hey, what did I tell you about that? Strike two.

So what is this dream world? It is also called reality. The only way a regular employee can be paid in cash - no withholding or no government filings - is when the employer is also acting illegal. Even homeowners with nannies must file government tax forms for that employee - if all laws must be imposed and justify Bruce's draconian attitude.

Bruce - tw, I'm taking your car... and your wallet.
tw - But, but, (17 paragraphs/Nixon/Vietnam/mental midget) it's against the law!
Bruce - Don't be so draconian. After all, your stuff isn't something important... like the country.

Where illegals are employed regularly, then taxes are withheld. Where illegals are not paying taxes, well, we only have stupid laws (and those who love those stupid laws) for creating that problem.

Yeah, I'm not paying any more taxes, because it's a stupid law.

In every case, its not the illegal immigrants that are the problem. The problem are so many who just hate immigrants and the hide behind phony reasoning such as "because it is the law". More important should be "because we need them". Anything less is the 'dream world' reasoning that Bruce is posting.

The only thing phony is you, and your 'dream world', where if the law is inconvenient just ignore it. Don't bother to change the law to a better one, we can trust everyone to only ignore laws that are stupid. Sure Tinkerbell, you and Peter come back and visit sometime.

Drive out the illegal immigrants - and the local economy goes recessionary. Why? Those illegals represent a most productive part of America's economy and the source of America's most productive future workers.

I'd be pretty productive, if I had to work under 1907 conditions, where the bossman has my balls in his vest pocket. And I'm not sure if I'll get them back and the end of the day. No, your name is not Jose, it's Toby now.

Why do we not let car thieves use the cars? Because unlike illegal immigrants, car thieves are not some of America's most productive workers and most important for America's future.

Don't worry about the car thieves, they are allowed to ignore any laws they feel are stupid.

When a Nation of Laws, selectively enforces those Laws for corporate gains, the rest of the nation will follow suit in losing all respect for the law. Then, no longer ruled by law, what will fill that void? A King? A dictator? Your crazy Uncle tw? You better hope not.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by tw

Those who hate illegal immigrants must now condemn you with same vigor. You have done things illegal. In the eyes of those who fear immigrants, you are now no different than those immigrants. Both have violated 'the laws'.

Shame on you for so hating America as to pay them in cash - according to the same logic used to hate illegal immigrants.

Or maybe illegal immigrants were never the problem. Problem is found in laws that have little relationship to reality. Reality - we need those immigrants by the millions - both in labors from Latin America, students from the Middle East, AND the many from India and China in the Silicon Valley. What do some of us advocate? Hate them all even thought 'they' are more important to America's future than many current Americans. Send them back where they come from. Screw free market principles. Screw those who would otherwise make America so productive. That is Bruce's reasoning.

Makes no difference if the worker is a corporate worker, engineer, hedge trimmer, or a nanny. If they are employed, then the employer must collect government paper work - or also be illegal. Bruce, et al conveniently forget that to justify hate of immigrants.

I have no problem with Clodfobble paying regular employees in cash. But those with a draconian allegiance to laws must now hate you for acting in the tradition of free markets - hiring anyone and paying them in cash. "Because it is the law" justifies hate of immigrants. The law is so screwed up that we need 1.8 mllion illegals just for agriculture. And millions more for installing insulation and cutting hedges and painting buildings. The solution? Fix the laws and ignore the hate promoted by Bruce.

So what is this dream world? It is also called reality. The only way a regular employee can be paid in cash - no withholding or no government filings - is when the employer is also acting illegal. Even homeowners with nannies must file government tax forms for that employee - if all laws must be imposed and justify Bruce's draconian attitude.

Where illegals are employed regularly, then taxes are withheld. Where illegals are not paying taxes, well, we only have stupid laws (and those who love those stupid laws) for creating that problem. In every case, its not the illegal immigrants that are the problem. The problem are so many who just hate immigrants and the hide behind phony reasoning such as "because it is the law". More important should be "because we need them". Anything less is the 'dream world' reasoning that Bruce is posting.

Drive out the illegal immigrants - and the local economy goes recessionary. Why? Those illegals represent a most productive part of America's economy and the source of America's most productive future workers.

Why do we not let car thieves use the cars? Because unlike illegal immigrants, car thieves are not some of America's most productive workers and most important for America's future.

What planet are you from tw? You really do believe this tripe. The only thing I can figure out is that you are either an illegal, the child of an illegal, or are making money on the back of illegals and are fearful of our country finally getting a handle around this problem and regulating the flow of people across our currently pourous borders. Those illegals do not represent the productive part of our economy and there is no way for you to back up such assertions. The only way they could be a source of future workers is if they brought over their illegal wife's and girlfriends and made more babies to tax our health care system with. What? wait 16 years as they are on the dole raising their spawn, paying for their health care and educating them on the back of our tax system? The hard earned tax dollars of those with legit jobs are paying for all of this, not the tiny bit they contribute buying IPods and other goodies as a sales tax. There is no way at their income level that collectively they contribute enough to our tax system to pay for the costs associated with paying for their health care, their educations, and the cost to house them in our jails when they screw up. You truely live in a fantasy world there tw...

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

What does the Marshall Plan have to do with our current situation?

We loan out money and help in other ways to jumpstart the Mexican and Central and South American economy.

It is one way that we might be able to solve the immigration problem and help our neighbors while we're at it.


Also, Americans are as hard-working as ever. The idea that Americans are lazy come from misleading statistics, hollywood, and a way to motivate people to work harder for less money. Everyone I work with except me and a 70+ year guy has two jobs.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

We loan out money and help in other ways to jumpstart the Mexican and Central and South American economy.

It is one way that we might be able to solve the immigration problem and help our neighbors while we're at it.


Also, Americans are as hard-working as ever. The idea that Americans are lazy come from misleading statistics, hollywood, and a way to motivate people to work harder for less money. Everyone I work with except me and a 70+ year guy has two jobs.

The Marshall Plan was a post -WW2 reconstruction plan for a war torn society of Europe. I don't think we need to more more US Tax payer money down the pit of third world countries to prop up their economies when that money could be spent better here at home on our own social programs and border security. The first idea would be just another failed crap shoot, the later is more secure.

How is Mexico our problem?