Who can tell me sth about the American Dream

[xoxoxoBruce]

Most of these poor people a saddled with a rugrat or two or three or four or......., so much for the storage area.

Mari, a couple years ago I had a girlfriend that was single with two boys in high school. She made a little over $16 k, federal withholding of about $1900 and a refund of well over $3k.

[lookout123]

bruce i wasn't suggesting that everyone follow in my footsteps. but i get tired of hearing the "i can't do _________ because _________ is in my way." there is always a path to improving one's situation.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Most of these poor people a saddled with a rugrat or two or three or four or......., so much for the storage area.

Mari, a couple years ago I had a girlfriend that was single with two boys in high school. She made a little over $16 k, federal withholding of about $1900 and a refund of well over $3k.

So what's your point, Bruce? Did she get the extra $1100 because she was dishonest and cheated on her tax return? If so, I'd be mad, too. I don't advocate dishonesty. Or did she get the extra $1100 for earned income rebate as a single Mom of 2 boys? That's a family of three living on less than $1400/month from the information you give. If that's all she earned, I don't see how she managed to make ends meet, and you begrudge her a lousey extra $1100? Give me a break. Why aren't you angry over the $50 billion that your taxes are helping to pay towards rebuilding Iraq?

Originally Posted by lookout123

mari - what should the cutoff be for a person to start having to pay taxes and at what percentage should they pay?
and lets keep in mind that the person who makes $7K/annual isn't living on that $7k alone. their are a few gov't programs available. food stamps, medical, housing. it all adds up. nobody denies that there really are poor people living in america - but we aren't living in the hell that you apparently see when you look around the world. if your community really is the way you are describing america, i strongly recommend that you pack your belongings into a car and pick a direction, drive an appropriate distance and start over. there are opportunities available.

Frankly, I believe there should be no cut off point. I feel that there should be a simple flat rate tax that applies across the board from people who make one dollar a year to one billion or more. There should be no tax dodges on that amount or exceptions. You just pay it, just as you pay sales tax. When you buy something at the store, it doesn't matter if you are single or married, have 20 dependents or none, or are wealthy or poor - you pay that 6% or whatever it is in your area. That is the simple, fair and just solution.

As for the rest of your comments: Lookout, you believe the same things I once used to believe - that there are any number of programs out there which help the poor or the elderly or the disabled. There are not, at least on the Federal level, and not on the state level either with perhaps one or two exceptions.

Here's a reality check for you. HUD is cutting back its housing voucher program by at least $200 million which will force more than 600,000 American families out on the streets over the next 3 years. HUD did not have to do this - congress had appropriated the funding, but under the climate of the Bush administration, HUD decided to make these cuts anyway. Meanwhile, we are going to spend a minimum of 50 BILLION dollars to rebuild Iraq. People who are enemies of this country will have roofs over their heads thanks to YOUR tax dollars, but American people in need will be living on the streets. Bottom line, which chunk of your share of taxes is going to hit you the hardest - the $200 million to help your fellow countrymen or the $50 billion to help your enemy? I am on the HUD waiting list, but in light of these cuts, I do exactly feel in a sunny mood about getting any help from them anytime soon, and since this is a FEDERAL program, it makes no difference which state I move to.

Thanks to tax cuts which mainly benefit the wealthy which I gave substantiated examples of above; state and local governments everywhere are experiencing shortfalls. The first programs to go are always social services. Thanks to the lack of assistance from state and local governments, the poor are turning to charities in overwhelming numbers. These private charities cannot stand up under the strain. This is true in state after state.

The other thing that you forget is that people who have lived somewhere for a while tend to have a support system of friends and/or family in that place. Even if a person's friends are living in poverty themselves and can give no financial assistance, the emotional support they offer has no price that can be placed upon it.

You seem to want to hold on to some fairy tale belief of America the bountiful and think that somehow Colorado is the exception to every other state. Colorado is little different than any other place in this country and better than some. Garnet is right. How do I with an income of $625.00/month plus $140.00 a month in food stamps possibly afford to pick up and move to some other state and pay first and last month's rent plus damage deposit on an apartment somewhere? Remember, HUD is a Federal program, so anywhere I go in the country I will be faced with the same shortages and waiting lists. In fact, by moving I would loose my place on the El Paso County HUD list and have to start all over again at the bottom of another county's list in another state. Your suggestion is simply impossible and my saying that is no more defeatist than if you had advised me to sprout wings and fly, and I told you that human beings cannot grow wings.

Staying in Colorado is far from an act of defeat on my part, anyhow. My doctors are here, my support system is here. I have contacts here who I believe will reach out their hands to help me as I seek to rehabilitate myself and find work I can do again. Things are tough all over this country. I may as well take my stand and fight in a place that I love and where I have my roots than among strangers in a place I don't belong.

[lookout123]

You seem to want to hold on to some fairy tale belief of America the bountiful and think that somehow Colorado is the exception to every other state. Colorado is little different than any other place in this country and better than some. Garnet is right. How do I with an income of $625.00/month plus $140.00 a month in food stamps possibly afford to pick up and move to some other state and pay first and last month's rent plus damage deposit on an apartment somewhere? Remember, HUD is a Federal program, so anywhere I go in the country I will be faced with the same shortages and waiting lists.

actually i don't believe that colorado is any different than the rest of the country. i wasn't suggesting that you move to another area for a better chance at a federal program. if you thought that is what i was saying then you missed the whole point. moving wouldn't help you. changing location for better work opportunities won't help a person who isn't working where they already are.

Originally Posted by lookout123

actually i don't believe that colorado is any different than the rest of the country. i wasn't suggesting that you move to another area for a better chance at a federal program. if you thought that is what i was saying then you missed the whole point. moving wouldn't help you. changing location for better work opportunities won't help a person who isn't working where they already are.

Well, make up your mind. Here's what you originally wrote:

" but we aren't living in the hell that you apparently see when you look around the world. if your community really is the way you are describing america, i strongly recommend that you pack your belongings into a car and pick a direction, drive an appropriate distance and start over. there are opportunities available."

What point am I missing?
__________________

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by marichiko

Well, make up your mind. Here's what you originally wrote:

" but we aren't living in the hell that you apparently see when you look around the world. if your community really is the way you are describing america, i strongly recommend that you pack your belongings into a car and pick a direction, drive an appropriate distance and start over. there are opportunities available."

What point am I missing?
__________________

that the world you see isn't reality. you choose to be a victim. you choose to bitch and moan about what you can't do. you choose to obsess about what stands in your way. you choose your life - don't blame it on america.

[garnet]

Originally Posted by marichiko

....and you begrudge her a lousey extra $1100? Give me a break. Why aren't you angry over the $50 billion that your taxes are helping to pay towards rebuilding Iraq?

Now there's something we can be mad at America about...

[garnet]

Originally Posted by lookout123

that the world you see isn't reality. you choose to be a victim. you choose to bitch and moan about what you can't do. you choose to obsess about what stands in your way. you choose your life - don't blame it on america.

Did she choose to have disabling health problems too?

[wolf]

I thought the American Dream had something to do with a House with a White Picket Fence, 2.3 children and a dog.

Originally Posted by lookout123

that the world you see isn't reality. you choose to be a victim. you choose to bitch and moan about what you can't do. you choose to obsess about what stands in your way. you choose your life - don't blame it on america.

Excuse me:
Reality - SSDI income $625.00/month
Reality - food stamps $140.00/month
Reality - housing voucher indefinate waiting list of two years or more

YOU are the one who refuses to see any reality other than your own, because you would be forced to re-exam your system of beliefs and move out of your little comfort zone.

I did not choose to breath in a deadly gas for 5 years. I attempted to prevent such an event by installing a CO detector in my home. It was faulty and malfunctioned. I had no way of knowing this.

If I state that I now have difficulties performing things that I once did without even thinking twice about them, this is not "bitching and moaning." It is a statement of fact.

You do not know what I am going through right now, precisely because I choose NOT to bitch and moan about it. You do not know about the therapy I am undergoing. You do not know what I am attempting through voc-rehab and on my own.

It seems to me that when I corner you on some point, you fall back on labeling me a "victim." Well, whatever helps you get through the night. I'm tired of attempting to defend myself to people with closed minds and zero medical knowledge. I have better things to do.

[Cyber Wolf]

What seems to be the problem here is that neither side of this particular battle is really seeing (or trying to see) the other side. There are lots of truths and facts being presented to validate either side's case, but there's also truth in the fact that the whole set up is entirely subjective. The American Dream is an abstract concept and can't be tied down with reality, facts and truths, mainly because it's different for so many people. There's a lot of argument about what the Dream means or has meant to you as individuals but for several it seems the Dream can't mean anything else but that.

Let's say John Q Public starts out in a poor, low-down neighboorhood, drops out of high school and eventually ekes his way into a bag boy job at the local grocery store down the street, making $6/hr, $12,160-ish per year. If all he wants is to bring home enough cash to help support his family so they all can live a little easier, who can chide him for that? How much he pays in taxes is irrelevant. Whether or not he can pick up all and move far away to possibly get $7/hr bagging groceries is irrelevant. And whether or not he should is irrelevant too. If he's happy doing what he's doing, he's realized the American Dream. The same can be said if John started off in a wealthy family, finished grad school and started a business.

Of course, not everyone would be happy and settle with a $6/hr job or owning a startup business. And not everyone is going to move past that. The American Dream is about being able to pursue happiness in whatever it is you do. It doesn't matter if what you want to do is provide a supplemental income or start a business or wrangle the money markets and live off your inheritance. There isn't, and shouldn't be, a monetary line where happiness begins. Poverty != unhappiness, and great wealth != happiness. Just because one person, or a group of people, refuses be happy making less than $XXX a year doesn't mean someone else or another group of people has to be unhappy as well.

[Clodfobble]

If I state that I now have difficulties performing things that I once did without even thinking twice about them, this is not "bitching and moaning." It is a statement of fact.

You do not know what I am going through right now, precisely because I choose NOT to bitch and moan about it. You do not know about the therapy I am undergoing. You do not know what I am attempting through voc-rehab and on my own.

Here's the problem, mari: You are clearly able to write these long, well-thought-out responses on a wide variety of topics on this board, and have been doing so for some time. You talk about going camping and other various activities, so you don't seem to be significantly physically constrained in any way. The biggest problem I can recall you talking about is a lack of short-term memory. But all in all, you don't seem to be very disabled to a lot of people on this board.

I'm not trying to belittle your experience or tell you that "it's all in your head," I do believe you were exposed to CO and your brain was affected by it. Perhaps if we met you in person it would be more obvious why you are unable to work. But just reading what you've posted, you clearly seem able to hold a job--probably not a head librarian with a personal secretary, but certainly a job making more than $625 a month plus $140 in food stamps.

I imagine the problem is you would find such work--say, as a receptionist or a grocery store cashier--demeaning, and choose to stay on disability instead. But if you wanted to, I believe you could easily get a job making $7-$8 an hour, probably more. And once you had that job, I believe you could move up from there. But you have to be willing to work hard to improve your situation, and that may mean accepting the fact that no amount of vocational therapy will get you back to where you once were.

[lookout123]

cyber wolf, that is what you said a page or 2 back and i think most people understood and accepted that as a very good explanation. the "dream" is different for everyone. we all have a shot at our dream.

the debate moved from being about that, to being more mari's about paranoid, victimized view of the world. but i still agree with you cyber wolf about what the dream is.

[Trilby]

Well said, clodfobble. Mari is also able to drive which requires short term memory and spatial ability--things she says she has difficulty with. Is Mari driving impaired? I don't know, but it seems like it.

[Cyber Wolf]

Can we focus less on Mari and more on the topic? Pleeeeease? With sugar? And caramel? And sprinkles? And whatever else topping you want? Double helping? :p