"She", not "he", guys

[DanaC]

*shakes head*

Yeah. 'cause it's just like that.

Y'know, sometimes, just sometimes, the Cellar really depresses me.

Callous, disregarding, cold. Cruel for cruelty's sake. This thread is a bully's thread and you're all fucking revelling in it.

Count me out. This has really got under my skin. I thought this was a better place and I thought I had nicer friends.

[infinite monkey]

Explain how it's different?
Explain how it's cold? It's a valid fucking point. It's refutable, if you'd like.

Maybe you should be out because I know I'LL never be what you think I should be.

Cold? Callous? Fucking get off your goddam highest motherfucking horse on earth and quit fucking judging me.

Right. Fuck you right in the eyeball.

[classicman]

Really Dana? Why & How is it different?
I struggle (A LOT) to put some of my thoughts into words on the screen.
I think IM did that very clearly.

[infinite monkey]

I'm still freaking out here.

How in the world was making that comparison wrong and why am I cold and callous?

I've alluded to it before: but you are at times the cruelest person here.

[DanaC]

Ok, though I'll explain: there is a good deal of medical evidence to suggest that gender is less simple that we have previously considered. Quite aside from those people who are born physically male but 'feel' female. There are all sorts of variations on the theme. Differences in hormonal makeup for instance. Sexuality and sexual orientation are extroardinarily complex pyschologically. It is a fundamental part of every person's identity, it is a fundamental part of everybody's psychological and physical development.

The colour of one's skin is pretty much set from birth. The only psycholotgical impact of skin colour is where it places you in the world. Skin colour does not bring with it an ever shifting, ever developing hormonal stew. Skin colour and 'race' do not show any differences in brain structure or function.

Differences in gender and in psychosexual development are also, in many (maybe even most) cases refletced in differences within the brain structure or function, or within the hormonal make up.


Why that angered me and got under my skin?



You were using Reductio ad absurdum to argue that a born male who self-identifies as female has no right to expect the world or any people in it to respect that.

Nice work Infi. Colour me impressed. What's your next trick?

Yes, maybe I am cruel. In this thread right now, I am being cruel. To someone I really like and care for. because in my absolute honest opinion you are being an out and out bitch. And that grates...because I know you arent one.

[henry quirk]

What I 'revel' in is the inability of supposedly bright folks to defend a position (to call a he 'she') beyond appealing to 'courtesy' and shifting cultural norms.

The question is simple: is Ibram a boy or a girl?

Objectively: he is 'he'.

I think I've nailed that on the head.

I think IM nailed that on the head.

You have no refutation so you stomp your feet and storm off.

Good riddance.

[henry quirk]

Cite some, great defender.

[infinite monkey]

Bullshit. A person could have a lineage other than their obvious one.

You're a fucking bitch, and that's all there is to it. Reductio ad bitchem.

Go to hell.

[DanaC]

*shrugs*

Fair enough.

[henry quirk]

"a born male who self-identifies as female has no right to expect the world or any people in it to respect that"

What such a person can expect is to be left to his own self-definition.

It is absurd for such a person to expect any one else to participate in what is a falsehood (that he is 'she').

Lie to yourself as you like, Dana...lie to Ibram as you like, Dana...I won't, and no amount of name-calling or appeals to the nastiness of the world will move me.

[DanaC]

And just so you dont get the wrong impression that this is all about you:

I'm pretty pissed off with a few people in this thread. Not least classicman who appears to be doing a bang up impression of a cheerleader every time you post something sharp.

[henry quirk]

...again: good riddance.

So many who express an outrage (as though being outraged is enough, as if being outraged means something), but when called out (evidence please!) run far and fast.

Be ashamed.

[infinite monkey]

You know, I really thought it was a point to ponder. Written in my typical hand of wit, but a point indeed. If you didn't agree, you could have said so and said why.

But no, you go off on me and make me feel small and stupid for thinking of it. You throw in your little Lifetime Scholar Debate words. You imply a lot of people should have their pitchforks in their hand in response to ME, and there is something WRONG with them if they don't.

This is why you are cruel. I've not been cruel to Ibram. I've said I don't understand. I've tried to think of how maybe I could feel something similar. I've tried to discuss (with the exception of the ever unpleasant Drax) but you don't like that so you aim to hurt.

Yes, Dana, you. You aimed to hurt.

I can understand your disappointment in some people in the Cellar. Will you ever see that in your unending crusade to right all that is wrong you HURT people who are really only trying to get along, understand, and goddammit maybe even laugh about it sometimes.

The most obvious sign of a person who has no class is that they are regularly pointing out why others are 'lesser'.

[DanaC]

Wasn't running. Just finding it all really distasteful. Not as an abstract topic. If that's all this was I owuldnt be upset. But because this was specifically targeted at an individual.

It's cruel, and fucking low rent.

I approach gender from a histrorical perspective, so although I have done some reading around transgender issues (as part of my work with the Adult Health and Social care Scruitiny panel during my time as a councillor) most of what I have readily to hand is to do with eighteenth-century gender constructions.

However, a quick google nets quite a bit of stuff. Starting with:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7689007.stm

Australian researchers have identified a significant link between a gene involved in testosterone action and male-to-female transsexualism.

DNA analysis from 112 male-to-female transsexual volunteers showed they were more likely to have a longer version of the androgen receptor gene.

The genetic difference may cause weaker testosterone signals, the team reported in Biological Psychiatry.

However, other genes are also likely to play a part, they stressed.

Increasingly, biological factors are being implicated in gender identity.

One study has shown that certain brain structures in male-to-female transsexual people are more "female like".

In the latest study, researchers looked for potential differences in three genes known to be involved in sex development - coding for the androgen receptor, the oestrogen receptor and an enzyme which converts testosterone to oestrogen.

Comparison of the DNA from the male to female transsexual participants with 258 controls showed a significant link with a long version of the androgen receptor gene and transsexualism.

Testosterone

It is known that longer versions of the androgen receptor gene are associated with less efficient testosterone signalling.

This reduced action of the male sex hormone may have an effect on gender development in the womb, the researchers speculated.

"We think that these genetic differences might reduce testosterone action and under masculinise the brain during foetal development," said researcher Lauren Hare from Prince Henry's Institute of Medical Research.

Co-author Professor Vincent Harley added: "There is a social stigma that transsexualism is simply a lifestyle choice, however our findings support a biological basis of how gender identity develops."

Although this is the largest genetic study of transsexualism to date, the researchers now plan to see if the results can be replicated in a larger population.

Terry Reed from the Gender Identity Research and Education Society said she was convinced of a biological basis to transsexualism.

"This study appears to reinforce earlier studies which have indicated that, in some trans people, there may be a genetic trigger to the development of an atypical gender identity.

"However, it may be just one of several routes and, although it seems extremely likely that a biological element will always be present in the aetiology of transsexualism, it's unlikely that developmental pathways will be the same in all individuals."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7689007.stm

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by infinite monkey

You know, I really thought it was a point to ponder. Written in my typical hand of wit, but a point indeed. If you didn't agree, you could have said so and said why.

But no, you go off on me and make me feel small and stupid for thinking of it. You throw in your little Lifetime Scholar Debate words. You imply a lot of people should have their pitchforks in their hand in response to ME, and there is something WRONG with them if they don't.

This is why you are cruel. I've not been cruel to Ibram. I've said I don't understand. I've tried to think of how maybe I could feel something similar. I've tried to discuss (with the exception of the ever unpleasant Drax) but you don't like that so you aim to hurt.

Yes, Dana, you. You aimed to hurt.

I can understand your disappointment in some people in the Cellar. Will you ever see that in your unending crusade to right all that is wrong you HURT people who are really only trying to get along, understand, and goddammit maybe even laugh about it sometimes.

The most obvious form of a person who has no class is always pointing out why others are 'lesser.'

I honestly thought you were using an absurd example to make your point. My apologies.


But I do think you've been cruel to Ibs. Maybe unintentionally. I do think this thread is cruel to its core though. because as I said above, it isn't an abstract matter, it is real and it is someone's life. Someone here.


Given your particular connection with issues around mental health: how would you feel if in order to discuss whether or not depression is over diagnosed someone started a thread to discuss it and used you as an example of someone who'd been misdiagnosed and was on the party pills unecessarily?