Rumors and Truth

[bluecuracao]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

If a liberal has a daughter who accidentally gets pregnant while using birth control, do they secretly wish they had taught the kid abstinence, since the birth control thing obviously didn't work?

Most people genuinely believe what they believe, across the board, and it's foolishly partisan to assume they don't.

No, it's not foolish. The liberal VP-candidate parent might wish something like that, and a host of other things when faced with such a situation. However, as a liberal, the parent and his/her child are free to choose from a variety options to deal with the situation, without looking hypocritical.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by richlevy

I'm not sure if even liberals would be able to ignore something like this.

Exactly what is the scandal? Where she and most Americans come from, an abortion would be the scandal. I think liberals will be the only ones not ignoring this. From here it looks like a family addressing a problem inside the bounds of their belief system.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by bluecuracao

However, as a liberal, the parent and his/her child are free to choose from a variety options to deal with the situation, without looking hypocritical.

By "variety of options," one can really only assume that you mean abortion, since pretty much every other option is available to the non-hypocritical conservative. And again, you are assuming that the big concern would be looking hypocritical.

Let's say someone does something horrible to your family. Do you secretly wish you could murder them, but don't only because you have publicly spoken against murder in the past--or do you genuinely believe that murder is wrong, and the fact that you are in difficult circumstances doesn't change that?

[bluecuracao]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

By "variety of options," one can really only assume that you mean abortion, since pretty much every other option is available to the non-hypocritical conservative. And again, you are assuming that the big concern would be looking hypocritical.

Let's say someone does something horrible to your family. Do you secretly wish you could murder them, but don't only because you have publicly spoken against murder in the past--or do you genuinely believe that murder is wrong, and the fact that you are in difficult circumstances doesn't change that?

We're still talking about politicians, aren't we? Because looking hypocritical is a pretty big concern when running for office.

Yes, I meant abortion--and adoption, and the daughter raising her child as a single parent. I don't think adoption is available as a hypocrite-free option to the conservative politician.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to prove with your analogy. Are you saying that Palin is so pure in her beliefs, that she could never regret her decisions leading up to her daughter's situation? Are you equating birth control with murder?

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by bluecuracao

Are you equating birth control with murder?

And there's the rub. Currently, the Feds only fund abstinence-only education instead of ABC. Whether she likes it or not, the American Academy of Pediatrics has come out against abstinence-only education, deeming it less effective and safe than including contraception.

The federal government, however, has tied conditions to it's funding contrary to the opinions of most experts due to social bias. Schools are not even given a choice.

Her personal situation only highlights the fact that she's in denial about teen sexuality. The fact that her daughter is getting married is nice, but ignores the fact that marriage due to pregnancy is not the recipe for a lasting marriage, and that girls and boys do not always have sex with individuals that they would choose as lifelong partners in marriage.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by bluecuracao

We're still talking about politicians, aren't we? Because looking hypocritical is a pretty big concern when running for office.

Yes, I meant abortion--and adoption, and the daughter raising her child as a single parent. I don't think adoption is available as a hypocrite-free option to the conservative politician.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to prove with your analogy. Are you saying that Palin is so pure in her beliefs, that she could never regret her decisions leading up to her daughter's situation? Are you equating birth control with murder?

I'm saying this is not the scandal that some people want it to be. She believes that teaching birth control methods in schools will encourage teens to have more sex, and she believes that abortion should be illegal. I happen to disagree with her on both points, but the fact remains that she is reacting to this situation in a manner completely in line with her belief system.

I'm saying I don't think she "secretly wishes" that she had encouraged her daughter to use birth control--and to suggest that she does implies that her daughter's pregnancy 'serves her right,' and that the only reason she is against birth control education is because she was too stubborn to imagine what it would be like to experience an unwanted pregnancy in her own family. I think it's patronizing, and like I said earlier, partisan to the point of cruelty.

My analogy was attempting to draw a comparison with some moral belief that I guessed you would feel strongly about, just as she feels strongly against abortion and birth control education. I don't know if she regrets her childrearing decisions or not, but I would say that her behavior certainly doesn't indicate a change of heart, so speculating about it beyond that is at best irrelevant and at worst haughty. When you say

However, as a liberal, the parent and his/her child are free to choose from a variety options to deal with the situation, without looking hypocritical.

you are saying that she is not "free to choose" a path that you believe is ethical, for the specific reason that she would appear hypocritical. I'm saying she has already chosen not to follow those paths because she believes them to be unethical, and for no other reason.

If her daughter had an abortion, everyone would be screaming that she was a hypocrite. Because her daughter is going to keep the baby, everyone is screaming... that she's still a hypocrite, but one who is so desperate not to appear hypocritical that she will take the genuine path? That sneaky, sneaky politician.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by richlevy

And there's the rub. Currently, the Feds only fund abstinence-only education instead of ABC. Whether she likes it or not, the American Academy of Pediatrics has come out against abstinence-only education, deeming it less effective and safe than including contraception.

The federal government, however, has tied conditions to it's funding contrary to the opinions of most experts due to social bias. Schools are not even given a choice.

Her personal situation only highlights the fact that she's in denial about teen sexuality. The fact that her daughter is getting married is nice, but ignores the fact that marriage due to pregnancy is not the recipe for a lasting marriage, and that girls and boys do not always have sex with individuals that they would choose as lifelong partners in marriage.

All of which are reasons why you think she is wrong, and for the record I agree with you. But her own daughter's pregnancy doesn't illustrate that any better or worse than any other teen girl's pregnancy.

And furthermore, it still doesn't make it a scandal--if anything, this whole thing may very well give her a boost among social conservatives, because she's walking the talk, 100%.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by richlevy

And there's the rub. Currently, the Feds only fund abstinence-only education instead of ABC. Whether she likes it or not, the American Academy of Pediatrics has come out against abstinence-only education, deeming it less effective and safe than including contraception.

Anchorage Daily News, covering the gubernatorial election in 2006:

Palin said last month that no woman should have to choose between her career, education and her child. She is pro-contraception and said she's a member of a pro-woman but anti-abortion group called Feminists for Life.

[jinx]

In all of the politics threads, UT is my hero. That is all.

[bluecuracao]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

I'm saying I don't think she "secretly wishes" that she had encouraged her daughter to use birth control--and to suggest that she does implies that her daughter's pregnancy 'serves her right,' and that the only reason she is against birth control education is because she was too stubborn to imagine what it would be like to experience an unwanted pregnancy in her own family. I think it's patronizing, and like I said earlier, partisan to the point of cruelty.

My analogy was attempting to draw a comparison with some moral belief that I guessed you would feel strongly about, just as she feels strongly against abortion and birth control education. I don't know if she regrets her childrearing decisions or not, but I would say that her behavior certainly doesn't indicate a change of heart, so speculating about it beyond that is at best irrelevant and at worst haughty.

Okay. So basically what you're saying is you thought my remark was mean.

The thing is, Palin's stances on these issues make me angry. So sure, it was meant partly to be mean. But haughty? Uh uh. I feel too strongly about the importance of sex education to just have a "haughty" attitude about her daughter's situation. Maybe Palin hasn't ever wished she did things differently, but I do. And since she's running for second in command of the country I live in, I feel like it's my business.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by richlevy

Again, one of the reasons for her selection was her appeal to social conservatives, with the implication that she could be a mother of 4 underage children (1 with special needs) and manage the number two job in the US. This incident does not support that.

The fact that her 17 year old got preggers does not refute it. It really means nothing more than her 17 year old had un-protected sex. I mean really weren't you 17 once? Did your parents control your actions when you were 17? Have you heard the 17 yr old on this very forum talk about what they have done? Drugs and sex have been part of it. Why have their parents not controlled them and prevented it? Why attack the girl, why didn't the boy wear a condom? No parent controls what their 17 year olds do. I have been through it twice with 2 kids and we have another about to be 17. How many 17 year olds do you have?

Will her husband be Mr. Mom while she is VP or will she require a nanny? Who will care for her baby when she travels overseas, especially to countries to which embassy personnel are discouraged from bringing dependents.

Who cares. That is their problem. Who cares for the babies of our deployed and deploying soldiers, sailors, marines, and AF personel? Who cares if he becomes Mr. Mom. Sounds like a personal choice they made when they got into the race as a family. Who cares if they have to hire a nanny. Why don't you think women should be successful and still have a family? You don't think they can do both? She has already proven that she can do both.

Most liberals and real libertarians won't care, figuring that anyone has the right to mess up their own family, but social conservatives will have a mental image of the baby crying for his mother while she boards Air Force Two.

Who says she "messed up her family"? You think that plenty of normal families have not gone what they are going through? Or is the fact that her 17 yr old made some poor decisions make them different. Social Conservatives will more likely look at them and think at least they supported her 17 yr old in her pregnancy and did not run out and get an abortion. Most people who support her in her run will not focus on some fantasy of her baby crying while she boards a plane.

The fact that she already has a family crisis while simply a state governor is not going to reassure anyone.

I still don't get why you are perpetrating the myth that a 5 month pregnant teen is a crisis. It is a crisis come and gone. The crisis occurred when they found out she was preggers, not 5 months after that. Or are state governors not allowed to have family crisises. Maybe you think they should just not have families. Hey, let's take a look at the things Clinton did while he was governor and see if any of them could be raised to the level of a "family crisis".

[Pico and ME]

My fear is that, unfortunately, as a result of this VERY high profile teen pregnancy, teen pregnancy rates will climb. Thats not a good thing.

[SamIam]

What's the big deal, especially if the daughter is getting married? I would assume that the daughter will set up housekeeping somewhere with her new husband, not move in with Mom and Dad. So who cares if Grandma has to go somewhere on Air Force 2? The child's mother is traditionally the one responsible for her own child. And if Grandma (and Grandpa) want to slip the newlyweds a few bucks, so they can buy their own home in Alaska or anywhere else, who cares about that either?

[jinx]

Originally Posted by Pico and ME

My fear is that, unfortunately, as a result of this VERY high profile teen pregnancy, teen pregnancy rates will climb. Thats not a good thing.

Did/do you have the same fears wrt Jamie Lynn Spears' pregnancy?

[Pico and ME]

The rates actually started to increase a bit after that one....this one will only add to its impact. Rates had been in decline since 1991.

I dont mean to demonize teen pregnacy, but there are negatives associated with it....and those negatives are even more pronounced when the girl does not come from a rich family.