Obsession

[wolf]

Parts of the documentary, Obsession just finished airing on FoxNews, and will be rebroadcast twice tonight, and again at 10pm Eastern tomorrow (Sunday 11-05-2006). (the official website appears to be overwhelmed with hits as I am posting)

It's a no punches pulled look at Radical Islam, Jihad, and open calls to kill Americans and Jews, calling Jews less than human because they are born of cows and pigs, indoctrination and training of children, recruiting them to the causes of Radical Islam and Jihad.

[Beestie]

Blaming others is a rewarding way to deal with being poor, stupid and ugly.

Blow us up all you want. We'll make more.

[Skunks]

On the first day of a class I took several years ago, Intro to Islam, the professor began by saying that there really isn't an Islam, so much as a lot of islams; beyond the Sunni/Shi'ite split, there are dozens of schools of jurisprudence, and dozens of sects within those, almost to the point that there is one islam for every Muslim.

He went on to present a version that I love; one where things are rational and sound, where it is more about god & humanity -- living rightly, living well -- than anything else. There are islams that are amazing; there are islams that are horrible, so much so that I cannot understand what, beyond the name, connects them.

[DanaC]

Good point Skunks. In some ways it's a little like Christianity. Look at the totally different approaches there are to that faith. There are Christians out there who epitomise charity and acceptance and then again there are Christians out there who think it's ok to bomb Abortion clinics and kill doctors or nurses who work there. There are Christians who believe in evolution and there are Christians who believe absolutely in the genesis creation. There are Christians who are happy to be ministered to by a gay cleric and there are christians who believe homosexuality is a sin or a disease and turn up at the funerals of aids victims with disgusting and vicious signs to taunt to the grieving relatives.

Islam is a medley of different faiths with the only real common factors being Allah and Mohammed. I have met some really nice moslems and got on great with them (male and female) on the other hand, I have also had moslem men put the phone down on me when I have phoned up on behalf of Cllr Najib, purely ( I am almost certain because they did it with a colleague as well) because I am female. When teaching in ESOL the male students, most of whom were Pakistani moslems, were courteous to a fault and placed their teachers on a pedastol by dint of their being teachers and therefore worthy of respect. Something I only ever encountered amongst Asian, Iraqi and Iranian students.

[Stormieweather]

I agree DanaC. There are good and bad in all groups. Christianity has so many different sects with so many different beliefs, you cannot 'know' the total of what someone believes simply based on their claim to be Christian. The same is true with Islam.

I hope that this program differentiates between the radical Muslim beliefs which they are documenting and the peacable teachings of Islam. I am not fond of anything that fosters hatred or fear through generalization.

Stormie

[Elspode]

Like Christians who truly understand the teachings of their faith, Muslims who *get it* are awesome people.

Religion is supposed to improve our lives, not make us into raving fanatics in the name of an angry and vengeful deity. Ptui!

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Stormieweather

I hope that this program differentiates between the radical Muslim beliefs which they are documenting and the peacable teachings of Islam. I am not fond of anything that fosters hatred or fear through generalization.

Stormie

Oh, you didn't notice it was on FOX...... it must be fair and balanced.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by Elspode

Like Christians who truly understand the teachings of their faith, Muslims who *get it* are awesome people.

Religion is supposed to improve our lives, not make us into raving fanatics in the name of an angry and vengeful deity. Ptui!

The problem is that you have to improve your life *their* way. If you don't want to do it *their* way, you have to die.

[morethanpretty]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

The problem is that you have to improve your life *their* way. If you don't want to do it *their* way, you have to die.

Not true with Christianity, not really sure about Islam, but in Christianity its not a physical death (I'm assuming that is the kind of death you mean) you suffer, but a spiritual one. In this case it is God who makes the judgement, not the followers. Unfortunatly many "Christians" think that they are have the right to judge. BTW the Bible says that God will judge based on the individual's experience.

[Sundae]

As usual I agree with Dana. I have had overwhelmingly positive personal experiences of Islam.

If you take the basic ideals:
- There is one God and his Prophet is Mohammed
- Five obligatory prayers a day
- Charity and alms-giving
- Fasting during Ramadan
- Hajj - the pilgrimage to Mecca
there is nothing to dictate that modern Islam should be a violent and oppressive religion.

I'm not denying that in some cases it is. In fact some countries run on these lines. But I do believe that within some schools of Islamic thought it is possible to live in the West without overt conflict. In the same way born-again Christians are able to live in the modern world despite rejecting many aspects of popular culture.

Like Dana I know Muslims who hold education in incredibly high esteem. I'm not sure if it's something in the Koran (direct & holy words) or the Sunnah (actions, approvals & disapprovals of Mohammed) but they believe education is a lifelong pursuit. One of the people putting this view forward was a woman who got her MSc from Houston and was taking further courses in England so I was inclined to take her seriously.

How much easier on the mind to know there are parents out there pushing their children educationally, when all the tabloids want us to believe is that teenagers bunk off school, hang round threatening old ladies and drinking brain-rot on the rec. I'm not fussed about the colour of my Doctor, as long as his/her religion doesn't affect my healthcare.

I won't judge someone on their religion.
I will judge them as a person and on their actions.
And if that person has blown themselves up on the Tube in my capital city then I despise them. They were British - I don't hate the Brits. They were Muslim - I don't hate Muslims.

This didn't turn out to be a specific response to this thread. It's just the way I feel, and I wanted to get it out there as I know there is some anti-Muslim bias in this forum.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

Big snip~ Charity and alms-giving ~bigger snip

So that's why Afghani families maim one of their children..... so they can beg and support the family in a desperately poor country.

[Aliantha]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

The problem is that you have to improve your life *their* way. If you don't want to do it *their* way, you have to die.

You didn't read the other posts about there being different 'types' of Muslims? The ones you're refering to are not a true representative of all muslims.

[Skunks]

A couple of points, now that we've established how there is a basic layer of Islam that can stand fairly solidly in spite of extremely negative interpretations:

- It is important not to confuse native culture with Islamic culture. Islam started on the Arabian peninsula in the early 7th century/late 6th century CE. By 750 CE the Islamic Empire stretched from Spain to the Indus river. This encompasses a huge range of peoples, cultures, and prior traditions, and gives an enormous amount of time for local distortion, integration with indigenous belief, etc. As in any situation where one culture encounters another (or conquers another; although early Islamic empires were remarkably good to the conquered states. It's an interesting history), practices and traditions were traded in both directions, and, over time, spread geographically to some degree. There are "Islamic" nations all over Africa, but a sub-Saharan version of Islam is probably quite different from your average Muslim in Cairo. If you're going to pick apart a particular habit or tradition of a culture, and use it as evidence against their stated or practiced religion, it is important to distinguish if it is a cultural practice or a religious practice; or, at least, to delve somewhat into where it comes from. Post hoc ergo propter hoc: not everything done by a Muslim is an Islamic practice.

- A lot of the conflict between Islam and Western Society comes from two worldviews that, at best, exist in separate paradigms, and, at worst, conflict: in general, a Muslim society is one built entirely around God; in general, a Western society is secular post-Enlightenment. The premise behind Ramadan and Salat (daily prayers) is to keep in mind God throughout the day; not to only remember when something goes particularly well or particularly poorly. The version of Islam I am familiar with calls for living in surrender to God, less 'practicing Islam.' It's a concept almost foreign to me. I imagine the reverse is true.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

The problem is that you have to improve your life *their* way. If you don't want to do it *their* way, you have to die.

Wrong.

As others have stated here and I have stated in other threads, your remark is untrue. It is a broad generalization where its precision matches perfectly with its accuracy. Don't propagate the stereotype. Find out for yourself.

In fact, your statement cannot even stand on its own merit. You're obviously alive--you're posting. You're obviously not one of them--you refer to "them" and not "us".

Think for yourself, don't believe lies, exaggerations and stereotypes.

[xoxoxoBruce]

You're right in saying there are many different types of Muslims. Spex is right in saying there are some that feel we must go along or die. It's just a matter on numbers....how many we have to worry about and how many we don't.

Just because Spex is alive doesn't prove there are not people who want to kill him for his faith, or lack of it.

Those radicals are the ones we have to prevent from winning the hearts and minds of the rest. You know, the opposite of what bush is doing.