The Cellar  

Go Back   The Cellar > Main > Politics

Politics Where we learn not to think less of others who don't share our views

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-23-2017, 10:37 AM   #91
Happy Monkey
I think this line's mostly filler.
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: DC
Posts: 13,534
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
Society has changed -- and is continuing to change -- but that's not enough.
It only changes because people say it's not enough.
__________________
_________________
|...............| We live in the nick of times.
| Len 17, Wid 3 |
|_______________| [pics]
Happy Monkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2017, 10:58 AM   #92
henry quirk
BEEP BEEP! They ALL flounce down here!
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,155
"Hillwilliams and poor folk who's sweat dug the coal and picked the cotton"

And the chiiiildren, you forgot to dredge up the chiiiildren.

henry quirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2017, 02:00 PM   #93
henry quirk
BEEP BEEP! They ALL flounce down here!
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,155
Mountain Mule,

Up-thread you wrote...

"15 separate US Government intelligence agencies agree that the election was hacked."

...this is news to me!

I'd like to read more about this hacking (you'd think I'd be more on top of this kinda stuff...I mean, that vote-casting and/or -counting was hacked, this is BIG news! I am ashamed... ), so if you could direct me to the proper sources, I'd greatly appreciate it.
henry quirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2017, 02:28 PM   #94
xoxoxoBruce
The future is unwritten
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 70,906
I think she's referring to the Russian connection, rather than the voting.
__________________
The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.
xoxoxoBruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2017, 03:43 PM   #95
henry quirk
BEEP BEEP! They ALL flounce down here!
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,155
Russian connection?

What Russian connection?

And: you mean the election wasn't hacked? That is: voting and/or vote-counting was unadulterated?

Then why would Mule say the election was hacked?
henry quirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2017, 03:49 PM   #96
Flint
Snowflake
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Dystopia
Posts: 13,005
I don't believe that anyone is literally mentally incapable of distinguishing direct vote-count manipulation, i.e. voting machine hacking (which NO ONE is suggesting happened) from other forms of Russian election influencing (which EVERYONE* agrees happened).

It disingenuous, and embarrassing.



*United States Intelligence Community

Joint Statement from the Department Of Homeland Security and Office of the Director of National Intelligence on Election Security

Quote:
Release Date:
October 7, 2016
...
The U.S. Intelligence Community (USIC) is confident that the Russian Government directed the recent compromises of e-mails from US persons and institutions, including from US political organizations. The recent disclosures of alleged hacked e-mails on sites like DCLeaks.com and WikiLeaks and by the Guccifer 2.0 online persona are consistent with the methods and motivations of Russian-directed efforts. These thefts and disclosures are intended to interfere with the US election process. Such activity is not new to Moscow—the Russians have used similar tactics and techniques across Europe and Eurasia, for example, to influence public opinion there. We believe, based on the scope and sensitivity of these efforts, that only Russia's senior-most officials could have authorized these activities.
...
__________________
******************
There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there
it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your
expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever
gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio

Last edited by Flint; 03-24-2017 at 03:56 PM.
Flint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2017, 04:23 PM   #97
henry quirk
BEEP BEEP! They ALL flounce down here!
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,155
Meh, I'd rather Mule have opened the door, but this...

"The U.S. Intelligence Community (USIC) is confident that the Russian Government directed the recent compromises of e-mails from US persons and institutions, including from US political organizations."

...works

Russia didn't hack the election. The election was above board, honest, and true. All parties -- as far as the election itself -- played the game by the rules in place.

Trump won, fair, square, and all the finaglin' (cryin' and protests) won't change that.

No, what Russia did is what all adversaries do. This is not surprising, unexpected, or anything other than business as usual.

And what Russia do? Stole information, stole FACTs, facts damning of, and embarrassing to, the DNC, Clinton, Clinton proxies, and democrats in general.

Now, to my way of thinkin': knowing facts -- regardless of the source -- is always a good thing. And I wonder: if the American press had actually done its job and exposed these facts (instead of Russia snd wikileaks) would folks be claimin' the press 'hacked the election'?

My point here: Russua's theft of FACT is one thing, the democrat powers-that-be bein' rat bastids (which is what the facts show) is another.


And speakin' of rat bastids: republicans in congress done pissed on us (me, anyway) again.

They took how many show votes (with no damn problem) to repeal the ACA (knowin' each and every time there was a veto waitin' at the other end) but now 'we just can't get a thing done! *handwring, handwring*.

Fuckin' repeal that piece of shit...cut it out like a tumor THEN sit down and do the hard work of figuring IF it shoukd be replaced.

If the answer is 'yes': start from scratch, do it right...make sure the whole thing fits on ten pieces of paper as a whole, and mebbe one in summary.


Now, back to Mule's claim of a hacked election...

Two descriptors fit: Liar, or, Nutjob.

Or mebbe a little of both.
henry quirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2017, 04:50 PM   #98
classicman
barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy.
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 23,401
Quote:
(my nice little catastrophic insurance, the one declared sub-standard by the ACA)
What? Thats just about what every Bronze plan is - as dictated to us through the ACA.
__________________
"like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt
classicman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2017, 09:49 AM   #99
henry quirk
BEEP BEEP! They ALL flounce down here!
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,155
I'm 54, don't quailfy for hardship status, don't qualify for subsidies.

Too old and not poor enough.

Yeah, the ACA is a friggin' blight for me.

Leave me be...fuckin' de-regulate, un-monitor, disentangle me.
henry quirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2017, 12:58 PM   #100
classicman
barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy.
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 23,401
The quality of my insurance has become virtually worthless unless I contract a major disease, virus etc or am in some major accident. Meanwhile my costs have tripled.
__________________
"like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt
classicman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2017, 03:44 PM   #101
BigV
Goon Squad Leader
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Seattle
Posts: 26,904
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
Oh you figure you can counter any argument by talking about the arguers sex and race.

And you also think you're in the "smart" group.

Well pick one, cos you can't have it both ways!



That's true! (Gosh when did you discover it? What a find! OMG did you read history books or something??? Oh you didn't??? Well, that makes it more amazing!!!)

And the piece's answer, and your answer, to that is to have an equal amount of reverse sexism.

Feminism used to be about equality. Now it's about inequality, ensuring women are superior for 240 years. You know, for "justice". We can only assume that the real problems of feminism and racism are entirely gone now that we are concentrating on righting the events of all of history. Society has changed -- and is continuing to change -- but that's not enough. Let's visit the sins of our forefathers because maybe we don't feel bad enough about it. And if you don't agree? You must be sexist and racist. We don't call it that, we call it "privileged". And even if you grow up in a poor, integrated neighborhood and wind up working at a ghetto pawn shop, that's your tag!

And we get to win every argument about it just by NAMECALLING! We think that's a smart way to go about this. Well,

FUCK YOU,

~ and ~

TRUMP 2020. Guaranteed. Because of people like you.
Hey Undertoad.

There's a lot going on here, a lot going on in the country and in my head. I want to try to sort out some of it. It's not all super clear, I'm gonna try and I hope you follow along.

First of all, I consider you a friend. I value what you've provided for me and my friends and family here. Thank you for that. I also thank you for engaging and arguing with me on the topic. Your thoughts and ideas are interesting and I find them important to help me understand what the fucking fuck is going on around here *waves at the country and the society, hell, the whole world*.

Let me start by answering one of your questions. Yes, I am smart. I'm smart enough to see our fucked up history. And I'm empathetic and sympathetic enough to feel the pain of the inequality and unfairness of what has happened and what is still happening. I am not a member of all of the groups that I feel this way about; for example, I'm not a woman, of course. But I know women who've been treated unfairly, women I care about and women I don't know but I still get the injustice. I still feel the compulsion to fight against it. There are plenty of other groups that fit this same pattern. A common aspect is injustice, unfairness, prejudice, and power.

I want to address a couple more of your questions and the words you've put in my mouth.

No, I do not
Quote:
...figure you can counter any argument by talking about the arguers sex and race.
Nor have I done so. That's stupid, it *is* namecalling and it's ineffective at best.

My response was to you for incorrectly summarizing the thrust of the article as a political piece having to do with ... y'know what. It is a political piece. And there's a lot there about stupidity. About the stupidity of hyperfocusing on (relatively) small, unimportant but flashy topics, topics important to those with power and privilege and paying scant attention to topics that affect huge sections of our population (women, non-white people, poor people)--but notice they are groups with less, maybe no power or privilege. That is stupid.

Please note, not you, Undertoad, are stupid. Not Trump voters are stupid. Our collective preference to focus on dumb shit and shrug off important, widespread, but unattractive strongly negative shit, is stupid.

The examples of this ABOUND around us. They're not all in politics. Look at the news this week. USA Women's Hockey, World Championship is happening soon. And the story around that event is that the Women's team earns $1000/month, for six months, every four years. And we have the champion fucking team. The women fly economy and the men's team flies business class. I don't have a cite, but I'm confident the financial numbers are valid. What the fuck is up with that? How is this right? Why is that? Why should we accept that?

How about another example from the political news. Did you see that picture tweeted by Mike Pence about sitting with the Freedom Caucus? A group of forty or so mostly older, mostly whiter, *all* men, discussing key components affecting women's health. Why are there no women in the room? Why are no women being included in the decision making process touted and celebrated? Another good question, why don't these guys fucking notice?

These are just a couple specific, contemporaneous examples. I know you, all of you can find a thousand more. As the article I linked to states, I'm fighting to overturn horrific systems of dehumanizing oppression.
Quote:
"The piece's answer, my answer is to have an equal amount of reverse sexism."
Your words, not mine. Not the author's. And they're wrong, that's not the answer. While we're at it, there's no such thing as reverse sexism or reverse racism. We've covered this elsewhere. Judging the worth of a person based largely or solely on their gender or race is still sexism or racism. It's *all* backwards thinking. And stupid.

So. Namecalling. Fine, knock yourself out. Be outraged, be petulant. You may be free from bias. You may be living your life based exclusively on the content of your character and the merit of your skills. It's possible that you're that rarest creature, the 100% completely self bootstrapped individual. If so, then why arent you using those talents to help the others around you less fortunate? Why aren't you using those talents and that experience to share with the majority of other people who remain unmoved either through ignorance or ennui?

There's work to be done. I'm in a position of privilege, power, and perception. I have the means, motive, and opportunity to change things. I can't unsee them, and now I can't leave them unchanged.
__________________
Be Just and Fear Not.
BigV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2017, 05:09 PM   #102
sexobon
^it sings^
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,729
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigV View Post
... I'm in a position of privilege, power, and perception. I have the means, motive, and opportunity to change things. ...
Not particularly interesting since you had all that before the last presidential election; but, it'll be entertaining to watch you try.

Keep us apprised of your progress. We always enjoy hearing from the loyal opposition.
sexobon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2017, 04:24 PM   #103
Undertoad
Radical Centrist
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
Posts: 31,279
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigV View Post
Let me start by answering one of your questions. Yes, I am smart. I'm smart enough to see our fucked up history. And I'm empathetic and sympathetic enough to feel the pain of the inequality and unfairness of what has happened and what is still happening. I am not a member of all of the groups that I feel this way about; for example, I'm not a woman, of course. But I know women who've been treated unfairly, women I care about and women I don't know but I still get the injustice. I still feel the compulsion to fight against it. There are plenty of other groups that fit this same pattern. A common aspect is injustice, unfairness, prejudice, and power.
Jesus Fucking Christ.

I'm not just talking to you Biggie, I'm talking to all my lefty friends everywhere when I say, we get it, you fucking care. Please, don't say any more. We know.

You know who really cares? Even makes you look bad, in the caring department? Tom Cruise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Cruise
"Being a Scientologist, you look at someone and know absolutely that you can help them. ...being a Scientologist, when you drive past an accident, it's not like anyone else when you drive past. You know you have to do something about it because you know you're the only one that can really help.

"But that's what drives me. I know that we have an opportunity to really effectively change people's lives and I am dedicated to that. I am absolutely, uncompromisingly dedicated to that."
Tom really cares very hard, and people say he is uniquely and energetically empathetic.

And that is why he should be setting public policy.
Undertoad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2017, 05:00 PM   #104
Undertoad
Radical Centrist
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
Posts: 31,279
Quote:
The examples of this ABOUND around us. They're not all in politics. Look at the news this week. USA Women's Hockey, World Championship is happening soon. And the story around that event is that the Women's team earns $1000/month, for six months, every four years. And we have the champion fucking team. The women fly economy and the men's team flies business class. I don't have a cite, but I'm confident the financial numbers are valid. What the fuck is up with that? How is this right? Why is that? Why should we accept that?
Okay, first of all -- y'only needed to ask "why" once there, at the end, not four times --

The answer is, nobody gives a flying puck about Women's Hockey. I'm sorry that, as your unpolitical example, you chose sports, where a lot of the point is seeing the very best in human performance, and women are ruled right out of that in most sports.

To put it another way, there is no "Men's Hockey". It's just Hockey, and these days if a women is the best at her position, she would surely make the team. I'm real sorry that there is more interest in "sports" than there is in "women's sports" although for now there is still less interest in seeing the top human potential as limited by gender. Perhaps someday there will be. I don't think it is a necessary factor in creating an less sexist culture.

You know what there is no money for? "Old People's Hockey". You get to a certain age, you're just ruled out! Nobody even questions this! Nobody even notices!

Quote:
How about another example from the political news. Did you see that picture tweeted by Mike Pence about sitting with the Freedom Caucus? A group of forty or so mostly older, mostly whiter, *all* men, discussing key components affecting women's health. Why are there no women in the room? Why are no women being included in the decision making process touted and celebrated? Another good question, why don't these guys fucking notice?
? I'm sure they noticed. Be hard not to notice. I've been at Freedom events (20 years ago) and noticed. Why would you say they didn't notice?

But why-why-why? I would imagine cos there were no elected women interested in the Freedom Caucus.

Also, there are few women interested in construction. Women are something like 4% of carpenters.

Women, it turns out, are more interested in college. Millions more women than men in college, ratio is about 55-45 last I checked. One question asked is, so what? Is there a "problem" with men? Do they have to be specially considered in order to get them to be interested in college? Is this a societal problem? OH NO what's gonna happen?? Oh shit, nobody even really notices! Does nobody care?!
Undertoad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2017, 05:29 PM   #105
Undertoad
Radical Centrist
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
Posts: 31,279
Quote:
It's possible that you're that rarest creature, the 100% completely self bootstrapped individual. If so, then why arent you using those talents to help the others around you less fortunate?
I spend time with them, and guess what, they don't give a shit about identity politics. They don't give a shit about Obamacare; they're steaming angry that they have to buy the shittiest tier Aetna and pay huge deductibles. They don't give a shit about gun laws when a gun-related background check from 15 years ago stops them from getting a corporate retail job and now they're dumped on by society. They don't really give a shit about Black Lives Matter, because they are taking public transportation three hours a day, and hoping there's enough policing in the city.

They are generally, but not all, Trump voters, and they believe you don't actually give a shit about them, and I believe that too.

Quote:
There's work to be done. I'm in a position of privilege, power, and perception. I have the means, motive, and opportunity to change things. I can't unsee them, and now I can't leave them unchanged.
Good lord.
Undertoad is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:16 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.