Middle East erupts - Page 8

xoxoxoBruce · 07-26-2006, 09:17 AM

The only reason they want to be in South Lebanon is so Hizb'allah won't be.

BrianR · 07-28-2006, 10:24 PM

I have a question.

Maybe I've missed a news report, but where in the hell are the terrorists getting so many hundreds of rockets, plus the hardware to launch them? I know they don't need a sophisticated launch platform but some kind of launcher is needed.

I think Israel would be better off cutting the supply lines and letting the terrorists wither from starvation and acute weapon shortages rather than trying to track down wach and every one and blast him/her from the air.

Sometimes, I hate being out of touch.

Brian

Happy Monkey · 07-28-2006, 10:40 PM

China and Russia, probably. Via Iran and Syria I expect.

jaguar · 07-28-2006, 11:09 PM

The missile that hit the frigate was a radar guided, Iranian made variant of the Chinese 'silkworm' missile although there are some reports it was a newer also Chinese designed YJ-82. Most the of the rockets appear to come from Iran and are based on Chinese, Russian or DPRK variant designs. The most common, a soviet designed truck-mounted multi-rocket launcher dates back to WW2.

BrianR · 07-29-2006, 07:26 AM

And these are just lying about the sand dunes waiting to be used?

Someone is giving lots of rockets to these nutcases in wholesale lots. Interdict the supply lines, even if it means taking on some tinhorn in a palace. Israel that is, not us...yet. We do more than our share of arming Israel already.

I think the middle east is headed for a showdown at high noon, loser leaves town. Or existance, whichever the winner decides.

Dr. Zaius · 07-29-2006, 09:43 AM

Here's a graphic of the types of rockets believed being used. Kinda shows how missles are trickling down to become a everyday guerilla household item. The Katyusha made it's debut with the Red Army in WWII. It was usually fired in groups from racks on the back of flatbed trucks.

tw · 07-29-2006, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianR

I think the middle east is headed for a showdown at high noon, loser leaves town. Or existance, whichever the winner decides.

Active parties are still playing 'feelers'. For example, watch as Condi Rice 'tests the waters' by blaming Syria and Iran for the violence. Remember, this started when Hezbollah did as they have done previously - kidnap some Israeli soldiers to exchange for prisoners - held without any judicial review. But Israel instead attacked even Beirut - attacked people completely unrelated to this event - Maronites, Druze, Shi'ites, etc. Are one in five homeless Lebanese also members of Hezbollah? Of course not.

It is a rather strange (and bold) strategy. Attack Lebanon so that the Lebanon army will attack and occupy Hezbollah controlled lands. It is why this war has so much attention from Saudi Arabia as to even result in a personal letter to George Jr complete with publicity.

Well the Lebanon army attacking Hezbollah did not work. The International Peace Force - a total joke - is not working. It will be curious what the White House (that is called the plays) does next. They don't want to get the entire Middle East involved. But they are repeatedly testing the waters for a new spin on this international peace force or some other strategy.

There are no innocents on Hezbollah or Israeli sides. There are simply the so many Lebanese who are victims of those two violent and uncompromising parties - Israel and Hezbollah. One will have to blink first. If it is Israel, the blinking will occur with spin so that you don't understand they blinked.

Meanwhile, notice the world did not fall for that ridiculous International Peace Force. Only a fool would have even suggested such is possible. So George Jr is again blaming Syria and Iran – the usual suspects – rather than addressing real reasons for this new war and without giving any consideration to its victims – innocent Lebanon. Even the US is being careful not to create another 1970s oil embargo - when gasoline then went to $7 per gallon in 2006 dollars.

xoxoxoBruce · 07-29-2006, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianR

And these are just lying about the sand dunes waiting to be used?

Almost, better hidden, but they have thousands and thousands of them stashed in Lebanon, from what I've read.

tw · 07-30-2006, 06:23 PM

One would be daft to not understand why Lebanese prime minister Fouad Siniora said his words in English. He told Condi Rice to not even bother coming until the US demands (and therefore forces) an unconditional ceasefire on Israel. Look beyond all the pretty diplomatic language. The US said to Israel to eliminate Hezbollah. And Israel found out that the force created to protect Lebanon from Israelis is tough.

Meanwhile, Israel says those leaflets telling Lebanese to make themselves homeless is total justification for bombing anything that might be an observation tower or bunker. 60+ civilians killed by a bunker buster type bomb should be blamed for their own death. Same strategy also shelled a UN observation post (installed since 1948) about ten separate times and then later (and finally) bombed by a bunker buster bomb. I believe dead are a Chinese, an Austrian, a Canadian, and someone else. Israelis tried repeatedly to kill Indian troops sent to rescue those UN troops. Oh ... but it was an accident - just like the USS Liberty - 52 murdered Americans - was an accident.

Decent people demand a smoking gun to justify war. Hezbollah raid on an Israeli guard post is worse that 200 Americans ships sunk by Germans off the US east coast? 200 torpedoed ships are not a smoking gun. Either is a Hezbollah attack. But we are not talking about decent people here. Send in planes routinely to attack innocents? Such attacks routinely by Israeli are justified? We are talking about the enemies of mankind - extremists - ones who started this war by creating what could be a smoking gun. An unprovoked attack on Beirut.

Israel (actually George Jr administration) will never get a Lebanese Army to replace Hezbollah. Even Maronites (Christians) strongly favor Hezbollah and their defense of Lebanon. Only an idiot would not expect that response.

This can easily get nasty just like in 1970s. George Wills made valid comparisons to 1914 Europe. Events are spinning out of control because that is what your American administration wants - more violence so as to terminate Hezbollah. More violence - as if using even nuclear bombers (with conventional weapons) would force N Vietnam to peace talks. Same mentality from a White House that again demonstrates no grasp of Military Science 101.

What nation in this world would be so stupid as to put their armed forces between Israel and Lebanon now? And yet this administration is still talking about an international peace force - as if Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. Mental midgetry is alive and well in Washington DC which is why the Lebanese Prime Minister spoke his words in English. In English so you might hear who he defines as the obstacle to peace. "Unconditional Ceasefire" will only happen when your president (Cheney) says so.

Fouad Siniora has just thrown down a gauntlet that is clearly pointed at the US. He might be foolish to believe Americans even heard him. But his comments were directed at you and your president - in English. "Unconditional Ceasefire".

Cyclefrance · 07-31-2006, 11:45 AM

I heard the Israeli Foreign Minister this morning following the disaster in Qana, giving the excuse 'if we had known there were innocents there then we would never have attacked'. It just sounds hypocritical - turning the blind eye to the reality - of course there could be innocents there as the Israelis constantly proclaim that Hezbollah is using them as a shield. So when they attack a 'valid' target they have every reason to believe that innocents will be there. So based on the FM's words they shouldn't attack.

It seems good enough reason instead for Israel to continue their attacks, proclaiming that it is Hezbollah that is to blame for any casualties as it is they that are using innocents as shields. With this sort of justification what chance a long-term reduction in aggression. Behind this and ready to provide future justification, there is Israel's stated fear that any cease fire gives Hezbollah the chance to re-arm. Until someone from each's own side slaps their particular protagonist firmly around the head instead of sidling up to their respective rhetoric, there will be no real change.

BlueSky_TheMan · 07-31-2006, 12:43 PM

Everyone,
If we see the impossible become the possible and a temporary ceasefire goes into effect today, what do you believe are the fairest concessions both sides should accept in order to achieve a true and lasting peace ?

tw · 07-31-2006, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueSky_TheMan

... what do you believe are the fairest concessions both sides should accept in order to achieve a true and lasting peace ?

First and foremost - an honest broker. The United States - the only power in this region to be an honest broker - is power behind the aggressor and not honest. Why would anyone concede to the US as an honest broker? Oslo Accords by Norway were so fundamentally revolutionary when an honest broker could be found AND the US was supportive of negotiated (not military) solutions. This fear of a negotiated settlement is also why extremist Likud called for and got an assassination of Menachem Begin. They needed to murder the Oslo Accords.

Without an honest broker, then no peace settlement is possible. With the US, whose solution is to advocate final (military) solutions rather than negotiation, then another Norway deal also is not possible. No honest broker exists that both sides will concede to.

We are so far from solving any world violence because the 800 pound gorilla has a 'big dic' mentality. As long as the 800 pound gorilla declares war as a solution to everything (ie Axis of Evil), then an only other solution is massive death rates on all sides. Death rates so high that centrists return to where intelligence and logic survives.

How would the world fix this problem? One solution would be a massive embargo on everything into and out of any Middle East country. A US military isolated in Iraq would also address the problem. Address the problem? Yes. Scare Americans enough start voting for intelligent leaders and not for religious fanatical solutions. For example, a McCain might be a first step to making negotiations possible. Clearly wacko extremists from the 'Project for New American Century' who even advocated a possible 'attack India, Germany or Russia' solution also are not capable of unbiased and logical negotiations; necessary to start a peace process.

For those who need soundbyte reasons: we don't even talk to Hezbollah, Syria

JayMcGee · 07-31-2006, 07:14 PM

Only honest brokers would be Russia or China....
no axe to grind, yet with their history it woulb unlikely that USA would accept them......

which begs the question......

who the hell appointed the USA as arbiters anyway?

xoxoxoBruce · 07-31-2006, 07:32 PM

You did....repeatedly.... don't you remember?

JayMcGee · 07-31-2006, 07:40 PM

I did? jeez..... the power I wield.... frightens me sometimes.....

(but not as much as the Yanks frighten me......)

07-26-2006, 09:17 AM	#106
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	The only reason they want to be in South Lebanon is so Hizb'allah won't be. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

07-28-2006, 10:24 PM	#107
BrianR Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 3,338	I have a question. Maybe I've missed a news report, but where in the hell are the terrorists getting so many hundreds of rockets, plus the hardware to launch them? I know they don't need a sophisticated launch platform but some kind of launcher is needed. I think Israel would be better off cutting the supply lines and letting the terrorists wither from starvation and acute weapon shortages rather than trying to track down wach and every one and blast him/her from the air. Sometimes, I hate being out of touch. Brian __________________ Never be afraid to tell the world who you are. -- Anonymous

07-28-2006, 10:40 PM	#108
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	China and Russia, probably. Via Iran and Syria I expect. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

07-28-2006, 11:09 PM	#109
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	The missile that hit the frigate was a radar guided, Iranian made variant of the Chinese 'silkworm' missile although there are some reports it was a newer also Chinese designed YJ-82. Most the of the rockets appear to come from Iran and are based on Chinese, Russian or DPRK variant designs. The most common, a soviet designed truck-mounted multi-rocket launcher dates back to WW2. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain Last edited by jaguar; 07-28-2006 at 11:17 PM.

07-29-2006, 07:26 AM	#110
BrianR Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 3,338	And these are just lying about the sand dunes waiting to be used? Someone is giving lots of rockets to these nutcases in wholesale lots. Interdict the supply lines, even if it means taking on some tinhorn in a palace. Israel that is, not us...yet. We do more than our share of arming Israel already. I think the middle east is headed for a showdown at high noon, loser leaves town. Or existance, whichever the winner decides. __________________ Never be afraid to tell the world who you are. -- Anonymous

07-29-2006, 09:43 AM	#111
Dr. Zaius Superior Inhabitant Join Date: May 2003 Location: Ape City Posts: 73	Here's a graphic of the types of rockets believed being used. Kinda shows how missles are trickling down to become a everyday guerilla household item. The Katyusha made it's debut with the Red Army in WWII. It was usually fired in groups from racks on the back of flatbed trucks.

07-30-2006, 06:23 PM	#114
tw Read? I only know how to write. Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 11,933	One would be daft to not understand why Lebanese prime minister Fouad Siniora said his words in English. He told Condi Rice to not even bother coming until the US demands (and therefore forces) an unconditional ceasefire on Israel. Look beyond all the pretty diplomatic language. The US said to Israel to eliminate Hezbollah. And Israel found out that the force created to protect Lebanon from Israelis is tough. Meanwhile, Israel says those leaflets telling Lebanese to make themselves homeless is total justification for bombing anything that might be an observation tower or bunker. 60+ civilians killed by a bunker buster type bomb should be blamed for their own death. Same strategy also shelled a UN observation post (installed since 1948) about ten separate times and then later (and finally) bombed by a bunker buster bomb. I believe dead are a Chinese, an Austrian, a Canadian, and someone else. Israelis tried repeatedly to kill Indian troops sent to rescue those UN troops. Oh ... but it was an accident - just like the USS Liberty - 52 murdered Americans - was an accident. Decent people demand a smoking gun to justify war. Hezbollah raid on an Israeli guard post is worse that 200 Americans ships sunk by Germans off the US east coast? 200 torpedoed ships are not a smoking gun. Either is a Hezbollah attack. But we are not talking about decent people here. Send in planes routinely to attack innocents? Such attacks routinely by Israeli are justified? We are talking about the enemies of mankind - extremists - ones who started this war by creating what could be a smoking gun. An unprovoked attack on Beirut. Israel (actually George Jr administration) will never get a Lebanese Army to replace Hezbollah. Even Maronites (Christians) strongly favor Hezbollah and their defense of Lebanon. Only an idiot would not expect that response. This can easily get nasty just like in 1970s. George Wills made valid comparisons to 1914 Europe. Events are spinning out of control because that is what your American administration wants - more violence so as to terminate Hezbollah. More violence - as if using even nuclear bombers (with conventional weapons) would force N Vietnam to peace talks. Same mentality from a White House that again demonstrates no grasp of Military Science 101. What nation in this world would be so stupid as to put their armed forces between Israel and Lebanon now? And yet this administration is still talking about an international peace force - as if Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. Mental midgetry is alive and well in Washington DC which is why the Lebanese Prime Minister spoke his words in English. In English so you might hear who he defines as the obstacle to peace. "Unconditional Ceasefire" will only happen when your president (Cheney) says so. Fouad Siniora has just thrown down a gauntlet that is clearly pointed at the US. He might be foolish to believe Americans even heard him. But his comments were directed at you and your president - in English. "Unconditional Ceasefire". Last edited by tw; 07-30-2006 at 06:29 PM.

07-31-2006, 11:45 AM	#115
Cyclefrance Pump my ride! Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Deep countryside of Surrey , England Posts: 1,890	I heard the Israeli Foreign Minister this morning following the disaster in Qana, giving the excuse 'if we had known there were innocents there then we would never have attacked'. It just sounds hypocritical - turning the blind eye to the reality - of course there could be innocents there as the Israelis constantly proclaim that Hezbollah is using them as a shield. So when they attack a 'valid' target they have every reason to believe that innocents will be there. So based on the FM's words they shouldn't attack. It seems good enough reason instead for Israel to continue their attacks, proclaiming that it is Hezbollah that is to blame for any casualties as it is they that are using innocents as shields. With this sort of justification what chance a long-term reduction in aggression. Behind this and ready to provide future justification, there is Israel's stated fear that any cease fire gives Hezbollah the chance to re-arm. Until someone from each's own side slaps their particular protagonist firmly around the head instead of sidling up to their respective rhetoric, there will be no real change. __________________ Always sufficient hills - never sufficient gears

07-31-2006, 12:43 PM	#116
BlueSky_TheMan This moment is a gift, thats why they call it the present. Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 56	Everyone, If we see the impossible become the possible and a temporary ceasefire goes into effect today, what do you believe are the fairest concessions both sides should accept in order to achieve a true and lasting peace ? __________________ -- I’m a Father, Husband, Son, Computer Dude, Sometimes Artist, Thirty Something, American, Jeep Driver, and devotee to truth, on a life path to remove the labels placed on my existence. --

07-31-2006, 07:14 PM	#118
JayMcGee Cardigan-wearing man Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Much Binding In The Marsh Posts: 1,082	Only honest brokers would be Russia or China.... no axe to grind, yet with their history it woulb unlikely that USA would accept them...... which begs the question...... who the hell appointed the USA as arbiters anyway? __________________ I like wearing cardigans...... my current favourite is an orange cable-knit with real leatherette buttons.

07-31-2006, 07:32 PM	#119
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	You did....repeatedly.... don't you remember? __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

07-31-2006, 07:40 PM	#120
JayMcGee Cardigan-wearing man Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Much Binding In The Marsh Posts: 1,082	I did? jeez..... the power I wield.... frightens me sometimes..... (but not as much as the Yanks frighten me......) __________________ I like wearing cardigans...... my current favourite is an orange cable-knit with real leatherette buttons.

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