3/13/2004: Madrid terrorism protest

[Undertoad]

When would you say it turned, exactly? When the UN passed 1441, or when the first bombs fell?

[Happy Monkey]

I'd say it started turning the second Bush started talking about Iraq, and each subsequent step (pushing the resolutions, badmouthing the inspectors, censoring Iraq's response document before distribution, kicking out the inspectors, lying in the SOTU, starting the Iraq war, setting up the "Coalition of the Willing", Freedom Fries, etc) made it worse, even in the so-called "willing" countries.

Bush also created some ill will in the Afghanistan war with the secret indefinate detentions, but Iraq was the primary force.

[Elspode]

Referring to my perceived Pollyanna attitude toward my government...I don't have one. I just don't think that the bumbling juggernaut that is the US Federal Governement could ever hope to keep such a large conspiracy secret. They aren't that competent.

[xoxoxoBruce]

I'll second that, Els.

[Uryoces]

Originally posted by Undertoad
So if 9/11 was a fluke, what was the 1993 WTC bombing?

I like to have informational links, but I believe that was due to a huge intentional blind spot in our intelligence gathering apparatus called Saudi Arabia. It's been the policy of the US government to gather no intelligence about Saudi Arabia, and that's where the attacks came from -- though not with the support or knowledge of the Saudi government.

[Undertoad]

So (back to HM) what Europe really doesn't like is not that it was or wasn't Iraq, nor that it was or wasn't war, nor that it was or wasn't necessary, but that the US was throwing its weight around basically without check.

[Happy Monkey]

I think you're putting words in my keyboard there. I can't figure out how you get that from my post.

First, notice that I was talking about Iraq, and not Afghanistan. The fact that Iraq was irrelevant to 9-11 was definitely an issue.

And then each instance of the US throwing its weight around (rather than using diplomacy) to push the dubious goal poisoned both US prestige and any legitimacy of the goal.

[Undertoad]

Yeah, basically we're at the same point on that. I wasn't putting words in your mouth so much as extending on it.

[tw]

Originally posted by Uryoces
I like to have informational links, but I believe that was due to a huge intentional blind spot in our intelligence gathering apparatus called Saudi Arabia. It's been the policy of the US government to gather no intelligence about Saudi Arabia, ...

Perspective is not accurately portrayed. Greatest problem with Middle East is that the US has few who even speak Arabic let alone are familiar with the culture. Cited as example is the girl who was CIA analyst on Afghanistan in pre- 11 Sept. She was constantly told that the Taliban were not dominate in country despite information she had that doubted that summary. On her vacation, and with knowledge of her boss, she took a trip to Afghanistan. Discovered the country entirely dominated by the Taliban - in direct contradiction to what she had been reporting. This was during George Jr's first year. When she got back, she reported what she had discovered. Instead she was arrested by the FBI for having gone to Afghanistan.

Too often, 1) basic intelligence reports are perverted by the agenda of higher ups. A difference from decades previous - 2) analysts once were first field agents. Today, most analysts have never spent any time in the country they are 'experts' on. These two facts routinely distort intelligence reports.

But it is not just in the CIA. Remember, FBI agents in AZ, MN, and IL all were on the tail of 11 Sept terrorists. And all were ordered not to investigate. The IL FBI agents are typical. They would not go public until after they had retired (for obvious reasons). They were told - no, yelled at - "You will not conduct a criminal investigation". That is an exact quote. The IL agents were following 11 Sept money trail until bosses yelled at them to stop.

It gets worse. The current president comes with 'no dirt under his fingernails". Contrast that with Kennedy whose experience said not to trust CIA report (no nuclear weapons in Cuba) and Gen Curtis LeMay (he could take out all missiles on the first strike). Fundamental difference. Intelligence has always been that murky as it is today. Problem is not the intelligence. Problem is that current top manager only knows the world from a six month crash course taught by Condolezza Rice. And then only wants to hear about things that agree with his pre-ordained conclusions.

Read the George Tenant speech again, *carefully*, with this perspective. He is a shrewd politician. He carefully worded that speech so that everyone heard what they wanted to hear. In reality, our intelligence is good and has flaws. Those flaws are normal which is why top management must be tempered with life experience. Today is really no worse than our intelligence has always been. Even the FBI could have stopped 11 Sept attacks if only top management permitted those investigators to do their job. But then how many parts of the FBI must be exposed defective before we go after top management. FBI labs fakes reports. Anti-spy group contained Soviet spies. Agents had to use their own home computers to get or transmit critical information. Agents were not permitted to investigate the 11 Sept attacks until after they happened.

But most scary and what has changed. 1) Top CIA analysts no longer come from the field. 2) Top FBI managers no longer first worked as field agents. And 3) the boss of everyone was busy doing alcohol and drugs when he should have been learning how the world really works.

[wolf]

Originally posted by quzah

Show me a picture with:
1) Plane wreckage.
2) Scattered luggage and the like.
3) Bodies.

Explain why in the very first released photos, the grass is all there, but for some reason, they bulldoze it all away. And again, there is no wreckage at all anywhere. Compare this to the wreckage of any other aircraft you picture you'll ever see. There is no luggage; no bodies were ever recovered from this "crash". Where'd they go?

All right.

I finally got the info we needed here ...

Where was the plane? Right the fuck there.

Why didn't you see it?

The pieces were too tiny.

We are used to seeing media coverage of and photos of plane crashes.

They usually occur on take off, or landing, and often involve some control of the airfoil.

In the case of an explosion (like lockerbie or the plane than went down off long island) the plane is separated into largish chunks. I've had the opportunity to see reconstruction photos from the NTSB ... they take the recovered parts and rebuild the plane to see if they can determine cause.

What differs between this and the 9/11 crashes at the pentagon and at shanksville, is that the planes were travelling at cruising speeds (300-400 mph) or higher.

There just wasn't any plane left to find ...

I spent the last two days with two men who were present at the shenksville site ... that's Flight 93, you know, Todd Beamer, Let's Roll, and all that.

The plane went straight down into the forest. The wings carry most of the fuel. They separated from the fuselage and burned. Aviation fuel burns hot, and aircraft aluminum has a relatively low melting temp. But it didn't burn as much as you might expect. There was only a small burn area in the forest.

And a hole in the ground. The grass was pretty much there too.

The first fire companies on the scene reported "there's nothing here".

These guys have been to plane crashes before. Both of these men were at the crash of USAIR 247, which also occurred near Pittsburgh. When that plane came down, there were no intact bodies ... much of the recovery involved picking bits of people out of trees, or finding nearly unrecognizable bits of people on the ground.

They finally found the plane ... or what was left of it.

50 feet down ... in that hole.

they dug out and sifted all the dirt, looking for body parts, etc.

They found very little.

ALL the parts of the plane that were recovered fit in a dumpster.

ONE dumpster.

The experience at the Pentagon would have been similar.

No, I haven't talked to anyone who was at the Pentagon.

But I saw the pictures taken by a couple EMTs with no agenda from Shanksville.