Saddam to Swing - Page 6

9th Engineer · 11-18-2006, 08:32 PM

Ah, it's the old 'human but not a person' argument

11-18-2006, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

I support the death penalty because I believe that if a person commits an act so hienous, so irreconcilable with our values as cold blooded murder or murder of the helpless, then they forfet their right to get any older.

So, you only believe that you can do this when there is 100%, irrefutable, proof? Like, video, with DNA, right?

Flint · 11-18-2006, 10:13 PM

And, if only in those cases, the benefit would be...uhhh...well...nothing tangible . . . actually . . . what is the benefit again?

Aliantha · 11-19-2006, 12:18 AM

Wolf, I've voiced my opinion about abortion in another thread quite recently here. The one that argued quite extensively about where life begins.

I am pro abortion.

I'd like to ask those who are pro death penalty what they think about the actual person who commits a sanctioned murder. Don't you think doing that for a living would fuck you over royally after some time?

9th Engineer · 11-19-2006, 01:13 AM

Depends, I don't think the guy pulling the switch on a multiple murderer/rapist is going to lose sleep.

bluecuracao · 11-19-2006, 04:40 AM

Damn, I had what I thought was a very eloquent response to Ali and 9th's posts, but then MonkeyBoy stopped working and started debating me on the whole thing. DAMN IT it's all shot to hell!

Aliantha · 11-19-2006, 06:14 PM

So you think you'd cope with it well do you 9th? You could kill people for a living?

Urbane Guerrilla · 11-25-2006, 10:09 PM

Aliantha, if it's sanctioned, it is by definition not murder. This is not to call it easy, though. Nowadays, nobody is a career professional executioner.

Living criminals have a recidivism rate. Executed ones don't.

I've said before, and in your hearing, that at the point of a death penalty, it's self-defense, extended society-wide, and it's damage control. Some villains are simply not redeemable, not in this life. Rehabilitation is shown, usually at length, to be ineffective with these, or simply impossible.

Aliantha · 11-26-2006, 02:13 AM

I don't care if you want to give it a special name UG. It's still killing someone else. That's murder in my books, and no amount of rationalising by you or anyone else will change that fact.

Urbane Guerrilla · 11-29-2006, 09:06 PM

Aliantha, you're blowing it, and egregiously: the difference between a rightful killing (defense of your life or that of another) and wrongful (in brief, not defense but in aid of wrongful aggression) has been understood since the Bronze Age. I understand it; explain why you cannot. I am not rationalizing, nor contorting reason.

Killing's not the nicest thing around, to be sure -- but getting killed is, as I'm sure you'd agree if put to it, worse by a long chalk.

Aliantha · 11-29-2006, 09:29 PM

Pressing the button which brings on the death of someone else is not self defense UG.

Ibby · 11-29-2006, 09:34 PM

I refuse to swat mosquitoes unless they are actively biting me, or flying close enough to me that I have to assume it's ABOUT to bite me. If it is outside, I'm not going to go out there, find it, and swat it so it cant magically come through the window and bite me.

I feel the same about the death penalty.

12-01-2006, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

... Some villains are simply not redeemable, not in this life. Rehabilitation is shown, usually at length, to be ineffective with these, or simply impossible.

Damn... now we have to murder kleptomaniacs.

Urbane Guerrilla · 12-02-2006, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Pressing the button which brings on the death of someone else is not self defense UG.

I've explained before just what it does defend, and I think clearly enough a planarian could get it. Pay attention, Ali -- this is worth paying attention to. That there is something here you patently don't want to know doesn't mean I can't know it -- and esteem it as better than your anti-defense viewpoint.

12-02-2006, 02:17 AM

I do see your point UG, and agreed with it for half of my life... it just does not work, logically or ethically, for me any longer. My actions must follow.

There is a world of difference, practically and ethically (no metaphors here), between the guy rushing you or potentially having a gun in your home, and the one in a cage with a life sentence or strapped to a chair.
What someone may do and what they are doing is the distinction.
(no one make the point that you never really know if someone you are defending yourself against is really trying to kill you, that is a red herring and you know it. Breathing in a cage is NOT actively posing a threat.)

11-18-2006, 08:32 PM	#76
9th Engineer Bioengineer and aspiring lawer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 872	Ah, it's the old 'human but not a person' argument __________________ The most valuable renewable resource is stupidity.

11-18-2006, 10:13 PM	#78
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	And, if only in those cases, the benefit would be...uhhh...well...nothing tangible . . . actually . . . what is the benefit again? __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

11-19-2006, 12:18 AM	#79
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	Wolf, I've voiced my opinion about abortion in another thread quite recently here. The one that argued quite extensively about where life begins. I am pro abortion. I'd like to ask those who are pro death penalty what they think about the actual person who commits a sanctioned murder. Don't you think doing that for a living would fuck you over royally after some time? __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

11-19-2006, 01:13 AM	#80
9th Engineer Bioengineer and aspiring lawer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 872	Depends, I don't think the guy pulling the switch on a multiple murderer/rapist is going to lose sleep. __________________ The most valuable renewable resource is stupidity.

11-19-2006, 06:14 PM	#82
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	So you think you'd cope with it well do you 9th? You could kill people for a living? __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

11-19-2006, 04:40 AM	#81
bluecuracao in a mood, not cupcake Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 3,034	Damn, I had what I thought was a very eloquent response to Ali and 9th's posts, but then MonkeyBoy stopped working and started debating me on the whole thing. DAMN IT it's all shot to hell!

11-25-2006, 10:09 PM	#83
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	Aliantha, if it's sanctioned, it is by definition not murder. This is not to call it easy, though. Nowadays, nobody is a career professional executioner. Living criminals have a recidivism rate. Executed ones don't. I've said before, and in your hearing, that at the point of a death penalty, it's self-defense, extended society-wide, and it's damage control. Some villains are simply not redeemable, not in this life. Rehabilitation is shown, usually at length, to be ineffective with these, or simply impossible. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

11-26-2006, 02:13 AM	#84
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	I don't care if you want to give it a special name UG. It's still killing someone else. That's murder in my books, and no amount of rationalising by you or anyone else will change that fact. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

11-29-2006, 09:06 PM	#85
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	Aliantha, you're blowing it, and egregiously: the difference between a rightful killing (defense of your life or that of another) and wrongful (in brief, not defense but in aid of wrongful aggression) has been understood since the Bronze Age. I understand it; explain why you cannot. I am not rationalizing, nor contorting reason. Killing's not the nicest thing around, to be sure -- but getting killed is, as I'm sure you'd agree if put to it, worse by a long chalk. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

11-29-2006, 09:29 PM	#86
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	Pressing the button which brings on the death of someone else is not self defense UG. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

11-29-2006, 09:34 PM	#87
Ibby erika Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: "the high up north" Posts: 6,127	I refuse to swat mosquitoes unless they are actively biting me, or flying close enough to me that I have to assume it's ABOUT to bite me. If it is outside, I'm not going to go out there, find it, and swat it so it cant magically come through the window and bite me. I feel the same about the death penalty. __________________ not really back, you didn't see me, i was never here shhhhhh

12-02-2006, 02:17 AM	#90
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	I do see your point UG, and agreed with it for half of my life... it just does not work, logically or ethically, for me any longer. My actions must follow. There is a world of difference, practically and ethically (no metaphors here), between the guy rushing you or potentially having a gun in your home, and the one in a cage with a life sentence or strapped to a chair. What someone may do and what they are doing is the distinction. (no one make the point that you never really know if someone you are defending yourself against is really trying to kill you, that is a red herring and you know it. Breathing in a cage is NOT actively posing a threat.) Last edited by rkzenrage; 12-02-2006 at 02:21 AM.

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