To those who have served or are currently serving...

[Pico and ME]

Originally Posted by BigV

Or, if you want to train for humanitarian relief efforts, don't be the Army. Be something else. I don't want soldiers on my street, lookin at me like a perp. Dammit.

AND...this group has JUST came back from Iraq. They are battle-hardened....prepared to fight.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by Pico and ME

AND...this group has JUST came back from Iraq. They are battle-hardened....prepared to fight.

I suspect its the last thing they want as well.

[Pico and ME]

My husband was a marine and he seems to think that you couldnt get these guys to follow orders to shoot to kill.

I wonder.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by regular.joe

What is posted is here is merely my informed opinion, with assumptions based on my knowledge of the Army and our mission sets.

The main mission of this infantry unit in support of NORTHCOM will be an on-call federal response force for natural or manmade emergencies and disasters, including terrorist attacks. Title 10 US Code is very specific about the use and the limitations on using US Military forces in the United States. I can think of two times soldiers have been deployed in the states during my service, the L.A. riots in the 90's and Katrina. Fire fighting missions happen every year; I have participated while on active duty...I'm wild land fire certified.

I personally think that the setting up of a response to disaster and terror attacks is a good thing, and should be done. Especially in this day and age with the current climate in the world. Military Commanders, as well as the NCO corps are very aware of our role in most circumstances. I'd say more so then the civilians who are sometimes appointed as our top leadership.

For instance the Armies policy, training and doctrine on interrogation seem to be quite a bit different than the current civilian leadership. I think that you can trust most commanders and SR level NCO's judgment.

Can and will mistakes be made at the human level on the ground? Yes. Is it possible in an L.A. Riots scenario for a US Soldier to shoot a civilian? Yes. Is it orders of magnitude more likely to confront a terrorist cell composed of foreign national combatants on U.S. soil right now? Yes, I think so. I think the need for a unit prepared for that fight is paramount.

[spacing added for clarity]

Hey joe:

Thanks for you participation in this thread. I appreciate the input from someone that is knowledgeable and articulate—you’re both.

I don’t have a problem with our military. I’m not afraid of them; I’m not ashamed of them. I have less confidence in the governmental leadership responsible for issuing orders to units deployed domestically. And I have practically no confidence in the general public’s ability to think and act rationally about any serious subject for a sustained period, never mind in a crisis. And it is these last two factors that make me very uneasy about a plan like this. I have little doubt the troops will do what they’re told. I fear that what they’ll be told, by the governmental leadership, will be suspect and that the general public’s behavior in a crisis will give them apt reason to yield to the panic.

I think our military is a first class organization, built for fighting war. I think the further the mission strays from that core responsibility, the more trouble we’re asking for. And to compound that risk, we’re doing it here at home.

I’m glad you’re wildfire certified. Honestly, thank you. I live in the Evergreen State, and up here fire==bad. But the portions of the article that talk about “helping with civil unrest and crowd control” chill me. If we’re talking about disaster relief, I’m all for it. But if we need the military to cope with these kinds of inevitabilities, it is a symptom of two larger more important problems. One, we’ve dangerously underfunded the civilian protective infrastructure and two, we’re changing what our military is.

I won’t be ungrateful if y’all show up when we’re on fire or the earthquake flattens us. I’ll be extremely grateful for the help and for the fact that you’ve trained in order to deliver that help. But I need y’all to do other jobs I can’t do, jobs my local community can’t do. And that’s be soldiers and sailors and airmen and Marines. You know, “Over there!”, shooting stuff. I can’t do that part. I can make sure my first responder community is properly designed and funded and trained. I can make sure my community has the right resources to maintain law and order. Of course, that means an enormous political and governmental and community effort to “stand up” the appropriate civil units. But it can be done, and should be done. Because I don’t want your job. You’re awesome at it and I’m profoundly grateful. Please keep your eye on that ball.

As for your last paragraph, we disagree.

Can and will mistakes be made at the human level on the ground? Yes. Is it possible in an L.A. Riots scenario for a US Soldier to shoot a civilian? Yes. Is it orders of magnitude more likely to confront a terrorist cell composed of foreign national combatants on U.S. soil right now? Yes, I think so. I think the need for a unit prepared for that fight is paramount.

I think the likelihood of a civilian casualty at the hands of a US soldier is far greater than a confrontation between a US soldier and a terrorist cell of foreign national combatants on US soil. I am certain of that. There are 300 million citizens on the ground here. What is the population of the terrorists? How will you make the distinction? Please don't take offense at this, but the same effort in Iraq, for example, has produced many civilian casualties. And in Iraq the proportion of bad guys to good guys is much much higher. Still civilians die. I don't want ONE civilian to die here. I think we're all begging for trouble if we take the safeties off here at home.

[HungLikeJesus]

Originally Posted by Pico and ME

My husband was a marine and he seems to think that you couldnt get these guys to follow orders to shoot to kill.

I wonder.

Shoot to thrill, play to kill
I got my gun at the ready, gonna fire at will
Cause I shoot to thrill and I'm ready to kill
I can't get enough, I can't get my fill
I shoot to thrill, play to kill
Yeah, pull the trigger

Pull it, pull it, pull it, pull the trigger

[tw]

Originally Posted by Pico and ME

My husband was a marine and he seems to think that you couldnt get these guys to follow orders to shoot to kill.

Tin soldiers and Nixon coming,
We're finally on our own.
This summer I hear the drumming,
Four dead in Ohio.

Gotta get down to it
Soldiers are gunning us down
Should have been done long ago.
What if you knew her
And found her dead on the ground
How can you run when you know?

And with our new economy, the best thing we could have done is privatize Social Security.

And the President can be trusted to go to war only when it is justified.

And Americans don't kidnap and torture because we are the good guys.

A President can be trusted to not corrupt the United States government such as unlimited wiretapping, breaking into Watergate, and attempting to subvert the elected government of Australia.

Even John Lennon was declared an enemy of America because we can always trust the powers that be. How quickly people forget the lessons of history even 30 years later.

Reasoning that soldiers can be trusted assumes corruption does not exist at the highest levels of government. At what point do we forget the lessons of Prof Zimbardo and those Stamford U psychology experiments? We can trust those in power to not abuse that power? Hardly.

Guantanamo demonstrates that Americans must especially ration power selectively. Our society depends on it.

Those who least can be trusted are those who only know what they are told - rarely ask those embarrassing questions. We are expected to learn from Hitler’s Mein Kampf. To subvert German society, he had to disparage the bourgeois and intelligencia. Then tell the 'brown shirts' how to think. That's all it took for Hitler to completely subvert the German government AND earn popular support for "Pearl Harboring" other nation.

Lessons of history (and even psychology) are quite blunt about giving any government and military too much power. Never forget lessons from the song "Ohio". Americans - especially soldiers who never learn to ask why and doubt - are easy enticed by the Dark Side.

[HungLikeJesus]

Good post, tw.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Brianna

The revolution is near, my friend.

It's about damned time.

[regular.joe]

It must truly be a difficult task to plan for and execute the defense of the United States. BigV, TW....you bring up some very good, and valid points. What is the effect of the decisions, and actions of our highest levels of leadership on our own civil population. We must take into account history in our actions, also that we don't give up our great freedoms in search of our defense. I am glad that you are both here to remind us. Thank you.

Rest assured, the US Government has circumvented armed clashes between its military and civilian populations by outsourcing augmentation of civilian law enforcement for domestic crisis intervention. The Whitewater Corp. (there's irony for you), a subsidiary of Blackwater USA, is retained by contract to perform that function should the need arise. Contingency planning for simultaneous crises in multiple US locations charges France with deployment of the French Foreign Legion under UN command to such locations as approved by UN Security Counsel resolution (seems fitting, they owe us) and the US Government shall therefore be held harmless of infringing on the rights of its citizens in the eyes of the international community.

[Judy Tenuta] "It could happen!" [/Judy Tenuta]

[slang]

Originally Posted by Pico and ME

....... you couldnt get these guys to follow orders to shoot to kill........

The foreign troops will take care of that.

How close to TEOTWAWKI are we now?

No wait. It's just me. Never mind.

[Cicero]

Heh. There's slang. Holy Heartbreak batman!!

[BigV]

Originally Posted by slang

The foreign troops will take care of that.

How close to TEOTWAWKI are we now?

No wait. It's just me. Never mind.

AWKI? It's already happened. This new page looks just like the beginning of the old page, though. History repeats itself, remember? But I'm really focused on the economic facets of the current turning. The political and social aspects, while fully integrated with the others are less clear to me.

[BrianR]

To those who have not served.

The oath we took when we raised our right hand, states in part: "I will obey the lawfulorders of the officers and seniors appointed over me.

It is not lawful to open fire on the citizenry. Or is it?

Have you tried to hijack an airliner and crash it into the White House lately? Bet you don't make it. Even stray out of the flight corridors around DC and RR Int'l and you will have a close up view of our nation's finest pilots flying F-16s fully armed as they escort you to an airfield so that you can talk to the nice men in dark suits who will meet you there.

I was once polled to see if I would be willing to fire on civilians in time of unrest and I said no. Nearly all of the crew did. The few who did not were found out (it was supposed to be secret) and shunned for a while.

I think the US military is still of this mindset. It could be OUR loved ones on the other side of that barricade. Could YOU shoot your own brother or parents? I couldn't.

Brian

[God]

You are all very very fucked.

Have a nice day.