4/3 Extra: Palestinian Girl

[Tobiasly]

Wow tw, you certainly have an interesting view of the world.

Most of the world doesn't consider suicide bombings terrorism (I'd like to see a poll on that)... Rumsfeld advocates torturing detainees... George W. Bush supports ethnic cleansing... and the Vatican "called in diplomats" for a forceful dressing down, like we somehow report to them?

Originally posted by tw
Let's see. Rumsfeld suggests torture may be necessary to get information from a recently captured leader of al Qaeda. Only right wing ultra extremists would imply such things. Curious this is the same man who fears to see naked statues. Where did he get his morality? He fears a naked statue but cuddles up to a dichead.

I hate to see you wrong because it weakens your arguments, but you've been mislead (or have misremembered) here. Rumsfeld has stated pretty clearly that the al Qaeda leader recently captured will <b>not</b> be tortured. He also had nothing to do with the naked statue in the Great Hall of Justice - that was Attorney General John Ashcroft that ordered the curtains to cover up Lady Justice's breasts.

[jaguar]

and you believe him on the torture?
pffftHAhahahahaha

[Undertoad]

<i>George Jr has given Sharon the Green Light to annex the West Bank and ethnic cleanse the land. There are no reasons to believe this is not true.</i>

Except of course for the UN resolution where we voted to demand they leave Ramallah. You must have missed that one?

<i>Listen to the BBC, et al. Most of the world, outside of official channels, really does not comdemn the Palestinians for suicide bombings.</i>

I would expect that a proper news reporting organization would not take sides.

Meanwhile, now that Bush has mentioned 242 and Oslo many times in the last few weeks I would have expected a new take on it from you. Bush is pressing that direction; take notice.

[Mr. Option]

The seminal moment was when Faisal Al-Husseini went to an Egyptian newspaper and said that the peace negotiations were a Trojan Horse, and the only real goal of them was the elimination of all Jews in the levant...

"...our ultimate goal is the liberation of all historical Palestine from the River to the Sea, even if this means that the conflict will last for another thousand years or for many generations."

Al-Husseini wasn't the only person with this opinion and he wasn't the only one who said it, but he was the PLO Executive Committee member in charge of Jerusalem Affairs, and he got in all the damn newspapers with it.

You don't conduct peace negoations while bragging to the press that your real goal is to manipulate your negotiating partner into giving you political, economic and military concessions which will help you exile or genocide them. By now, everyone in Israel has read those words.

Frankly, if you talk like that, you may never be able to negotiate for peace again.

And while I'm on the subject, I see a lot of EU condemnation of Israel's conduct, especially from the Vatican, but Europe is not the place I'd go for unbiased opinion on the Jewish state, and the Catholic Church... don't get me started.

Originally posted by jaguar
and you believe him on the torture?
pffftHAhahahahaha

I'm glad you're a cynic and all, but the fact of the matter is that he's going to be forced to stand by those words. The captured are monitored by Red Cross and if anything is wrong, they cry foul.

[Lost Viking]

Originally posted by Undertoad
<i>George Jr has given Sharon the Green Light to annex the West Bank and ethnic cleanse the land. There are no reasons to believe this is not true.</i>

Except of course for the UN resolution where we voted to demand they leave Ramallah. You must have missed that one?

Action speaks louder than words. So far only empty words, no action. Ariel Sharon is known as a supporter of annexing the West Bank. His slogan is "Palestine lies east of the Jordan river", suggesting that the Isrealies should drive palestinans further into Jordan. (The West Bank is/was Jordanian territory)

He has been pushing the hardest to support Isreali settlers (currently 200,000!) on the West Bank. Because it gives "proof on the ground" and effectivly forcing the outside world to accept the West Bank as Israeli territory once it's emptied by force.

Without Bush more openly opposing that, it will happen. It took Bush several weeks of international condemnation to finally speak out against the Isreali "lebensraum" policy. But he need to take action when they keep doing it again and again. (The "security" excuse, is just that, an excuse. Has Isreal gotten more secure with aggressive military action? No. And it will not work in future either, even Sharon knows this)

US threats to stop the millions of $ in military support would be a start. Preferably along with threats to stop the uncoditional polical support it has given Isreal in the last 50 years. Punisment for the Sabra and Shatila massacre (2700 innocents killed by Isreali trained christian forces, supported by IDF soldiers): 3 months of no free arms from Uncle Sam! Again, all empty words. No action.

I think there is a misconception that Europeans support the Palestians. We don't. We support peace. There is a difference. Suicide bombings are disgusting and Arafat is a coward for not accepting the Palestian state he was offered. But two wrongs don't make a right, blunt reprisals against an entire society for the actions of few create nothing but hate.

Unless peace means killing everybody on the other side, which is not exactly a foreign concept to Sharon considering that he allowed the massacre in Sabra and Shatila. (Minister of Defense at the time.)

Too bad Clinton is gone, he had the best (and most critized by US right wingers) middle east policy of any US president. It resulted in historic peace talks and two years of cease fire. Without that kind of commitment from the US the savagery will continue, because it's the only nation powerful enough to pressure both side to the negotiating table.

[snagglefish]

http://www.palestinercs.org

An interesting site maintained by the Palestinian equivalent of the Red Cross.

"Israeli Army uses confiscated wireless devices from detained PRCS medics to interfere with ambulance services" ;

"PRCS has to-date documented two cases in which paramedics were used as human shields by the Israeli Army (Mar 30 and Apr 2)"

And so on.

In other news Canada's Svend Robinson is off to Ramallah:
(http://canada.com/vancouver/news/story.asp?id={CDCDFC52-A607-45E4-8429-AAE01E5A6E05})

[tw]

Originally posted by Undertoad
Except of course for the UN resolution where we voted to demand they leave Ramallah. You must have missed that one?

What the US votes in the UN and what we really do are two separated events. It is quite likely that even Tony Blair would have scolded George Jr if we had not voted that way. Bush's Middle East position is not held by any other nation in the world - except Israel.

In the meantime, Sharon had promised (I believe it was Colin Powell or George Jr) on the same day he attacked Arafat's HQs that he would pull out of Ramallah. Instead, Sharon moves deeper into Ramallah and many other West Bank cities since then - lying just as he did in Lebanon 20 years ago when ordered by the Israeli Prime Minister - multiple times - to halt. Is George Jr just another backboneless leader to lie to - or just naive - or is George Jr as racist as Ariel Sharon? Did we hold Sharon to his word? Of course not. Does our President endorse ethnic cleansing? We know Sharon lies as he has since he nearly took the world to nuclear war - and George Jr does not care. Sharon has been given a Green Light. Even Charlie Gibson suggested same tonight on ABC Network news when he noted that everyone in the Israeli government he talked to knows they will only have this Green Light for a short time. Another damning fact that suggests this George Jr. Green Light does indeed exist.

The Arab world is right to believe we have given Sharon a Carte Blanc - to do as he pleases for a few weeks - as Charlie Gibson reports. There are no facts to say otherwise. That UN Resolution (I beleive it was a Security Council proclaimation) is simply window dressing - not the real opinion of George Jr. - who blames the victim - Palestinians - for their own predicament.

<i>Listen to the BBC, et al. Most of the world, outside of official channels, really does not comdemn the Palestinians for suicide bombings.</i>

I would expect that a proper news reporting organization would not take sides.

The BBC has not taken sides. They have reported facts - noted how suicide bombings are not comdemned throughout large segments of the world - and not on the streets of any Arab nation. [Tobiasly - do not again misrepresent that as "Most of the world doesn't consider suicide bombings terrorism"]. I don't remember which news service (maybe Bloomberg) reported that only 2 nations out of 57 condemn suicide bombings. When confronted by outright oppression, is it immoral to defend your people with everything you possess? Of course not.

Meanwhile, now that Bush has mentioned 242 and Oslo many times in the last few weeks I would have expected a new take on it from you. Bush is pressing that direction; take notice.

Even George Jr is not immune from criticism from most of the world. When the Vatican dresses down your diplomats, then you can be sure the rest of the world is not happy either. Note Tony Blair's stony silence. George Jr. has antagonized or strained American relations with most of the world. Eventually even George Jr will have to confront UN 242 and 338. But currently, George Jr is limiting comments to UN 1402 - something about suspending violence. Geroge Jr talks only of the Mitchell and Tennant accords (concepts, agreements, findings?). He actually does not mention UN 242 or 338 much - not at all as far as I have heard. In yesterday's news conference in mid afternoon, he talked of 1402 - not 242 and 338 nor the Oslo Accords as far as I heard.

George Jr talks about Israel's right to defend itself. What he does not say is damning. What about Palestine's right to defend itself? Palestinians were under attack long before the wave of suicide bombings. Death rates of Palestinian civilians were in excess of 20 to 1. Where was George Jr when Palestinian farmers has their olive trees chopped down because a terrorist **might** hide there. A terrorist that would be attacking Jews traveling to an illegal West Bank settlement - just another minor point so conveniently forgotten. Where was George when the Israeli courts refused to hear that famer's petition? Where was George Jr when the government confiscated famer's land without due process either for unpaid taxes or for eminent domain - steal farmland to build a larger highway to that illegal West Bank settlement?

But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their Duty, to throw off Governement, and provide new Guards for their future Security. ... In every stage of these Oppressions, we have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble Terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated Injury.

And so those people defended themselves using terrrorism - as defined by George Jr. They immorally ambushed, attacked, and murdered British soldiers. They rioted in the cities in response to oppressive government actions. They even threw tea into Boston harbor. What makes 18th Century British any different from 21st Century Israelis? Well, the British did not openly murder 20 Yanks for every dead Brit. They did not attack policemen in Boston because of rebel ambushes in the countryside. When the British used live bullets to quash an anti-British demonstration, the shot was heard round the world - excessive force to quash a just cause. Israel's army routinely violates principals of a peace keeping force using violence even the British would not have used.

Previously Israeli army censors even attempted to censure all news reports - or shot at reporters - because honest news reports cannot be trusted. All reporters killed recently (ie one from Italy) were killed by Israeli soldiers - who are so careful not to kill innocent people?

Israeli troops keep 'accidentally' killing Palestinian children? They accidentally shot at American newsmen - the most recent being an ABC cameraman trying to fix water on their hotel. They have stolen other men's livelyhoods - outright oppression. The Palestinians have every right to defend themselves as violently as the American Colonists did in the 18th Century. That quoted principal that justified American violence - the reason that also justifies Palestinian rebellion - is from the American Declaration of Independence.

If there is plenty of blame to go around, then Americans who demanded justice in the years before the Declaration of Independence were also just terrorists - per George Jr's definitions. But then George Jr prefers to blame the victim for his own problems - not to mention that George Jr gave the Green Light to one of the world's most vile men - Ariel Sharon.

The Israelis are doing in Palestine what the Serbs were doing in Bosnia - except the Serbs did not have a Green Light from the President of the US.

[Undertoad]

<i>He actually does not mention UN 242 or 338 much - not at all as far as I have heard. In yesterday's news conference in mid afternoon, he talked of 1402 - not 242 and 338 nor the Oslo Accords as far as I heard. </i>

I've heard him mention 242 and Oslo three times and that was before today. Wait until you see what he said today -- you'll have to swallow your tongue. I think you'll enjoy the new take - a sudden shift in your direction.

[Lost Viking]

Here is an interesting interview with Ariel Sharon from 2001, it answers a lot of questions.


http://www.humanityonhold.com/sharon/quotes.html

How will you react if Arafat unilaterally declares an independent Palestinian state?
"First, I would advise him not to do that. That would be a mistake on his part. Both the last government in which I was a member and the Barak government had a clear stand on this subject. A stand that obligates us to take a series of measures to retain the areas that are vital to us."

And what about the plans for separation between Israel and the Palestinians?
"I see no possibility of separation. I don't believe in the idea of us here and them there. In my opinion, that possibility does not exist in practical terms. I always said that it is possible to live with the Arabs."

"But if you ask me what hope I am offering to the Israeli public, I propose setting a series of national goals: bringing a million Jews within 12 years, so that by 2020 the majority of the Jewish people will be living in Israel; developing the Negev, which is the last reserve available for Jewish settlement; and renewing education according to Zionist principles, which will restore the sense of the justice of the struggle and the feeling that we have a full right to this land, ideas which have been very much eroded in recent years."

How can there possibly be peace when such a person is leading Israel?

[tw]

Originally posted by Undertoad
Wait until you see what he said today -- you'll have to swallow your tongue. I think you'll enjoy the new take - a sudden shift in your direction.

No doubt there is a change in George Jr's actions. He has finally relented and got involved - after every EU country (an ironic reverse) begged him to get involved. George Jr said he wanted to get involved many days ago, but was waiting for the right time. Others say the last Sunday bombing and the 18 year old Palestinian girl suicide bomber was what changed his mind. So where was he all week? Why the stall?

Again, if we are to take Charlies Gibson's ABC News report, George Jr was stalling to give the Israelis more time. Charlie then noted how long Powell will take to arrive in the Middle East - more time for the Israelis to do at they want.

Yes, George Jr may have mentioned 242 and Oslo (as I suggested), although he has been rather quiet about this fundamental requirement for peace. IOW he has permitted, indeed encouraged, the final destruction of the Oslo Peace Accords - either out of ignorance or intentionally. However the final act would be to remove Arafat. George Jr stopped at letting that happen. Had George not said anything, we all but know that Arafat would have been removed or murdered. The international response would have been too much even for Geroge Jr - despite what Rumsfeld and Ashcroft were probably saying. This is probably where Colin Powell just saved either Arafat's life or the last remaining shred of the Oslo Accords.

The fact remains in spades from the time Sharon started the Intafada in Sept 2000, that the entire purpose has been one - to make the Oslo Accords and UN 242 irrelevant. There can be no doubt that Ariel Sharon wants to annex the West Bank and Gaza strip. Too much proof of that has been posted in The Cellar and even in this thread. Ariel Sharon has started the violence and escalated the violence to one end - destroy the peace process and make those resolutions and accords irrelevant by military force. This amounts to ethnic cleansing.

Furthermore, lets take last night's Nightline. The report was quite explicit. 200 Israeli demonstrators were before the US embassy in Tel Aviv demanding the US get involved and end this massacre. The Israeli police did not just break up the demonstration without warning and for no legal reason. They attacked the demonstarators with violence that even the deep south 1960 police would never have done. The Nightline reporter next said that if this is the acceptable violence where the press exists, then how much more violent are the Israelis in those areas where the press is being removed (by firing live ammunition at press and their vehicles)? Previously, the Israeli army at least read a statement before they removed the press - which is unacceptable anywhere the warrior is honest. But now the Israelis fire their weapons instead of ever reading the statement.

How violent and racist? In the same ABC News boardcast, an American women living in Ramallah talks about how Isreali troops marching into her home and ransacked it. She told them up front that she was an American and that they had no right to do these actions. So instead, the Israeli troops pissed on her floors. What can we expect from a racist nation. They outrightly too out their penises and pissed on her floor.

It is quite obvious that the world's most racist nation is Israel. Furthemore it is obvious that Sharon's plan to destroy the peace process and the Oslo Accords is right on track. Escalate the violence and then blame the victim for that escalation. That is not just Sharon's current plan. It is what Sharon has done all his life. Did we mention his long history of insubordination and outright lying? Did we mention the suspected massacre of Egyptian prisoners by Sharon during the 1967 war?

Sharon's outright lying over the decades has been so consistent that any Palestinian 'document' relating Arafat with terrorists must be doubted. As too many US reporters keep reminding us - the authenticity of that document cannot be verified. It is not that they have not tried. US press is saying they can't trust the authencity of the Ariel Sharon's proof - for obvious reasons.

As too many others also note, Sharon's purpose is to destroy the peace process. George Jr has successfully contributed to that effort - either intentionally or because he is a mental midget with advisors as right wing extremist as Sharon.

[Griff]

We've tried engagement. It does not work. No financial or military committment to any of these thugs is in the interest of the American people. We should offer one thing, free trade. No more guns, no more planes, no more cash, simple trade or nothing.

I just want to point out a difference between 1776 USA and 2002 Israel/Palestine:

Palestinian suicide bombers target civilians.

If they were fighting soldiers... okay. And some do. But for the most part, civilians are targeted.

George Washington, Thomas Jefferson... they didn't advocate the killing of innocent British civilians. They were right in what they <b>wanted</b>, the same as the Palestinians are right in wanting their own state.

The means are entirely different. That is what makes it hard to support the Palestinians. Their extremists ruin it for them and the public doesn't unilaterally condemn the suicide bombers' actions. Many of them support it (to the tune of 80%). How do you say "yeah, we should support these guys" when they advocate killing innocent citizens?

[Lost Viking]

Originally posted by dhamsaic

The means are entirely different. That is what makes it hard to support the Palestinians. Their extremists ruin it for them and the public doesn't unilaterally condemn the suicide bombers' actions. Many of them support it (to the tune of 80%). How do you say "yeah, we should support these guys" when they advocate killing innocent citizens?

There is a difference between supporting palestinian action without condition and trying to support peace. The world is not black and white you know.

Peace makes the extremists irrelevant. Right now there is no moderate movement in palestine because how could your possibly support talks with people who want to openly drive you from your land? Ariel Sharon and his cronies have generated this on purpose because they need a situation where deporting people for "security reasons" are acceptable.

Nobody with any kind of brainpower supports suicide bombings against civilians. It's just that the extremists run the show on both sides, the moderates have been made irrelevant in this war like situation.

It's interesting to note that suicide bombings used to be the actions of 30 year old hardcore palestinian fanatics with long involvement in Fatah/Hamas/Al Aqsa etc etc. Now it's the action of god damn 18 year old children. Why? Because military action nurtures extremist action.