Saudi: Why we punished rape victim - Page 2

Cloud · 11-25-2007, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by queequeger

. . . burglar . . . What if you raped him instead?

huh. one of my favorite erotic stories features exactly that scenario.

But that is fantasy, man! I cannot imagine any jury buying into rape as a defense-of-the-home act.

11-27-2007, 01:22 AM

The thing about this story that gets me is that I don't see that the US is not that different.
A woman gets raped here and the prosecution is allowed to try her past and "character" (bullshit word and connotation) as if they have ANY bearing on the incident being discussed.
They do NOT.
By doing so she is being, defacto, tried. Just as several high-profile cases have shown us, not only in the courts but publicly from the prosecution's immoral tactic.
It is a puritan/protestant legacy and nothing more.

Aliantha · 11-27-2007, 01:46 AM

That's a good point, but isn't it generally the defence simply trying to suggest that their client wasn't guilty at all because the woman/man wasn't really raped.

I think every case is different and it's really hard to say from the outside what's right or wrong unless you sit through every day of the trial, and even then it can be pretty tough. When I was selected for the jury in the trial I mentioned earlier, I almost asked to be excused because I didn't know if I could be objective and open minded. Believe it or not, in the end, I think it really helped me deal with my own situation and to rationalize my own thoughts on the matter.

Also, even though someone has been accused of rape, they're still innocent until proven guilty. Is that not the case? Of course, this only applies to western courts in general. Other countries have different ways of doing things as we all know.

Please keep in mind that I have a personal experience in this area, so I am trying to be as fair as possible to both sides.

11-27-2007, 01:51 AM

I see your point, but innocent until proven guilty has nothing to do with her character any more than her character has anything to do with whether she was raped or not, ever, no matter what her character was.
But, you know this Ali.

Aliantha · 11-27-2007, 01:59 AM

Well, from my own perspective, I know that some of the choices I made on the night it happened to me contributed to it happening. Should the man have been punished for my stupid choices? Or only his stupid choices, and if I'd not made those stupid choices, it might never have happened. *shrugs* I guess I'll never know what would have happened because I never called the cops and the reason I didn't was because at the time I knew I'd made bad choices and it'd be hard for anyone to believe I hadn't 'asked for it'.

11-27-2007, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Well, from my own perspective, I know that some of the choices I made on the night it happened to me contributed to it happening. Should the man have been punished for my stupid choices? Or only his stupid choices, and if I'd not made those stupid choices, it might never have happened. *shrugs* I guess I'll never know what would have happened because I never called the cops and the reason I didn't was because at the time I knew I'd made bad choices and it'd be hard for anyone to believe I hadn't 'asked for it'.

SO pissed off... wrong a long reply and-power-surge.

I completely disagree with you Ali, sorry to, but I do.
When I was dating I was having consensual sex with a girl, who had issues I later found out, and she said stop... so I stopped.
Had I continued it would have been rape, just rape and only rape; my fault, just my fault and ONLY my fault.
Nothing she can do, say, "imply" etc, matters after "NO", anything after that is HIS DECISION ALONE and RAPE.
No is ALWAYS NO.

queequeger · 11-27-2007, 04:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Well, from my own perspective, I know that some of the choices I made on the night it happened to me contributed to it happening. Should the man have been punished for my stupid choices? Or only his stupid choices, and if I'd not made those stupid choices, it might never have happened. *shrugs* I guess I'll never know what would have happened because I never called the cops and the reason I didn't was because at the time I knew I'd made bad choices and it'd be hard for anyone to believe I hadn't 'asked for it'.

Not to mention that saying it was even partially a victim's fault because of their actions implies that men are animals and can't control ourselves.

Cloud · 11-27-2007, 09:11 AM

The US is not all that different? I disagree. It's illegal in Saudi Arabia for a woman even to get in a car with a guy not her husband and brother. It's illegal for a woman to vote, own property, choose her own job.

We've come a long way in this country in the last 100 years, even if we still need to go farther, such as in the treatment of rape victims. Saudi Arabia is still in the fifteenth century.

No comparison.

classicman · 11-27-2007, 09:56 AM

My gosh, Ali. Thats terrible. You have a great attitude for one who has gone thru something like that.

11-27-2007, 12:53 PM

So you are saying, Cloud, that a woman raped in the US is not de-facto tried by the courts and public, really? Wow.

Cloud · 11-27-2007, 12:55 PM

No, I'm not saying that at all. I agree that more progess is needed in this area. I'm saying that there a huge difference between the position of women in this country and the laws that affect them, and that of Saudi Arabia.

11-27-2007, 01:01 PM

I don't agree, I just think they are more overt and honest about it.
You must not spend much time reading the news about court cases (not just rape but battery and other crimes against women), listening to popular music, and seeing advertising in any form. Cave much?

Cloud · 11-27-2007, 01:07 PM

When Saudi Arabian women are allowed to vote, own property, and live on their own without a man, we'll compare notes.

11-27-2007, 01:49 PM

Different tactics, same outcome, objectification is objectification in my view.
We disagree on that point, I see.
If someone is an object in a larger, prettier, cage it is ok with you... no sweat.

Happy Monkey · 11-27-2007, 02:05 PM

Saudi women are in cages. American women encounter fenced-off areas. It is a difference in kind, not just in scale.

That's not to say that the fences shouldn't continue to be removed.

11-27-2007, 01:46 AM	#18
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	That's a good point, but isn't it generally the defence simply trying to suggest that their client wasn't guilty at all because the woman/man wasn't really raped. I think every case is different and it's really hard to say from the outside what's right or wrong unless you sit through every day of the trial, and even then it can be pretty tough. When I was selected for the jury in the trial I mentioned earlier, I almost asked to be excused because I didn't know if I could be objective and open minded. Believe it or not, in the end, I think it really helped me deal with my own situation and to rationalize my own thoughts on the matter. Also, even though someone has been accused of rape, they're still innocent until proven guilty. Is that not the case? Of course, this only applies to western courts in general. Other countries have different ways of doing things as we all know. Please keep in mind that I have a personal experience in this area, so I am trying to be as fair as possible to both sides. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

11-27-2007, 01:59 AM	#20
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	Well, from my own perspective, I know that some of the choices I made on the night it happened to me contributed to it happening. Should the man have been punished for my stupid choices? Or only his stupid choices, and if I'd not made those stupid choices, it might never have happened. shrugs I guess I'll never know what would have happened because I never called the cops and the reason I didn't was because at the time I knew I'd made bad choices and it'd be hard for anyone to believe I hadn't 'asked for it'. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

11-27-2007, 09:11 AM	#23
Cloud ... Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 8,360	The US is not all that different? I disagree. It's illegal in Saudi Arabia for a woman even to get in a car with a guy not her husband and brother. It's illegal for a woman to vote, own property, choose her own job. We've come a long way in this country in the last 100 years, even if we still need to go farther, such as in the treatment of rape victims. Saudi Arabia is still in the fifteenth century. No comparison. __________________ "Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the bastards!"

11-27-2007, 12:55 PM	#26
Cloud ... Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 8,360	No, I'm not saying that at all. I agree that more progess is needed in this area. I'm saying that there a huge difference between the position of women in this country and the laws that affect them, and that of Saudi Arabia. __________________ "Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the bastards!"

11-27-2007, 01:07 PM	#28
Cloud ... Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 8,360	When Saudi Arabian women are allowed to vote, own property, and live on their own without a man, we'll compare notes. __________________ "Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the bastards!"

11-27-2007, 01:22 AM	#17
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	The thing about this story that gets me is that I don't see that the US is not that different. A woman gets raped here and the prosecution is allowed to try her past and "character" (bullshit word and connotation) as if they have ANY bearing on the incident being discussed. They do NOT. By doing so she is being, defacto, tried. Just as several high-profile cases have shown us, not only in the courts but publicly from the prosecution's immoral tactic. It is a puritan/protestant legacy and nothing more.

11-27-2007, 01:51 AM	#19
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	I see your point, but innocent until proven guilty has nothing to do with her character any more than her character has anything to do with whether she was raped or not, ever, no matter what her character was. But, you know this Ali.

11-27-2007, 09:56 AM	#24
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	My gosh, Ali. Thats terrible. You have a great attitude for one who has gone thru something like that.

11-27-2007, 12:53 PM	#25
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	So you are saying, Cloud, that a woman raped in the US is not de-facto tried by the courts and public, really? Wow.

11-27-2007, 01:01 PM	#27
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	I don't agree, I just think they are more overt and honest about it. You must not spend much time reading the news about court cases (not just rape but battery and other crimes against women), listening to popular music, and seeing advertising in any form. Cave much?

11-27-2007, 01:49 PM	#29
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	Different tactics, same outcome, objectification is objectification in my view. We disagree on that point, I see. If someone is an object in a larger, prettier, cage it is ok with you... no sweat.

11-27-2007, 02:05 PM	#30
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	Saudi women are in cages. American women encounter fenced-off areas. It is a difference in kind, not just in scale. That's not to say that the fences shouldn't continue to be removed. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)