11/13: Destroying Pakistani firearms

[CharlieG]

Originally posted by jaguar
...snip...($20k for a beretta rounghly) ...snip...

Damm,
For that price I should go into business!

Let's see, a nice HAAS Minimill ($39k), a nice CNC lathe (say 20k), a surface grinder (3-4k), a heat treat oven, and a few other things - call it $100k. I open a small machine shop doing general work (as the cover), and every so often run off a pistol on the side. I'd make a better living than most machinists. For that matter, stat an import/export business that moves cargo containers of ANYTHING. All you need to do is break even on the business, and put ONE gun in every 10th container:


Think about it - drug dealers (at least in this country) regularly smuggle in drugs by the TON (just look at the busts) - how hard do you really think it would be to slip a pistol (never mind anything else) into the load. Hell, we're worried about the fact we can't stop people from smuggling in a nuke

yes, but this is australia. understand that they're more likely to catch someone importing a gun because they're so much better than us at everything they do

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by jaguar
Yes but you or someone like you COULD, and has extremely access to the firearms to do it.

I'm sure you (or someone *like* you) COULD do all sorts of incredibly evil things too. Do you have access to a baseball bat?

The fact is that licenced firearms owners in the US are a very law-abiding group, more so than the general population.

Originally posted by jaguar

That figure...is entirely accurate, i'm not going into where it comes from at all but it is an actual quote...

Sorry. I find your unattributed "actual quote" totally unconvincing. Perhaps you heard about someone making an offer at that price. Maybe you even know somebody stupid enough to pay that much for one small caliber autoloader and enough ammo for a day at the range--just enough to *start* breaking it in.

But if you're telling me that's the going black-market price for such a thing, you've strained my credulity to the breaking point, and managed to convince me you're totally blowing smoke. As CharlieG points out, the guns need not even be imported. A well-known CNC-manufactured 9mm autoloader is sold profitably here in the US for $US 225.

[node]

Well, I have comments for both sides of the argument here. First, 20,000 dollars is a ridiculous price for a pistol. You'd pay half that for an Arctic Warfare Super Magnum Sniper Rifle for instance, and those things have an effective range of over a mile. It'd have to be one impressive pistol to match that.

On the other hand, the argument that gun owners are a responsible bunch is too broad a statement for me to accept until I see figures for the number of lives saved by a gun in America stacked up against those lawlessly taken by a gun.

On the other hand:

"I'm sure you (or someone *like* you) COULD do all sorts of incredibly evil things too. Do you have access to a baseball bat?"

So why don't gun owners keep baseball bats instead? And no, I don't consider that (my afore mentioned point, not yours) as stupid as it initially seems.

[jaguar]

I'm sure you (or someone *like* you) COULD do all sorts of incredibly evil things too. Do you have access to a baseball bat?

The fact is that licenced firearms owners in the US are a very law-abiding group, more so than the general population.

I'm sure you realise you can do allot more damage very quickly with an AK47 in a shopping mall than a baseball bat.

As for going rates i'm screwed for this because i'm not exactly about to start giving out names and phne numbers so you can check am i, although 20k is the highest i've heard. 4ish the lowest. It depends allot on what it is and where it comes from.

yes, but this is australia. understand that they're more likely to catch someone importing a gun because they're so much better than us at everything they do

I'm not going ot rise to your stupid bait but there are 3 ways of getting somehting into this country, and they apply to most.
a: dump it somewhere along the coast, someone else picks it up. There is buggar all along our top coast its not hard.
b: Bribe someone to let it in, harder by far but not impossible.
c: sneak it in, with a gun this is very hard, and risky.

CharlieG would need to be a damn fine machineist to make a high quality relaible semi-automatic pistol and ammunition that was capable of being mistaken for the real thing.

just enough to *start* breaking it in.

*sigh* its nto baout actually killing anyone iwth it, and if you did it owuld be at clsoe range, its about bullshit and posing, you packin a gun - you serious.

As for in relaiton to drugs i still haven't seemed to hammer home th epoint that if you are caught, or even the wiff of such a thing being aorund its taken VERY seriously, i'm talking full on, police go rabit over stuff like that. Drugs are common, auto pistols are not.

[russotto]

Originally posted by jaguar
I'm not going ot rise to your stupid bait but there are 3 ways of getting somehting into this country, and they apply to most.
a: dump it somewhere along the coast, someone else picks it up. There is buggar all along our top coast its not hard.
b: Bribe someone to let it in, harder by far but not impossible.
c: sneak it in, with a gun this is very hard, and risky.

Really? So you never get container-loads of metal parts?

CharlieG would need to be a damn fine machineist to make a high quality relaible semi-automatic pistol and ammunition that was capable of being mistaken for the real thing.

If the Afghanis can do it with hand tools (and they can), a competent machinist can do it with modern technology. Remember, he doesn't have to design the thing, just build it.

[jaguar]

YOur average customs XRAY eqipment is quite capable of seeing the gun hape, or at least ammunition.

If the Afghanis can do it with hand tools (and they can), a competent machinist can do it with modern technology. Remember, he doesn't have to design the thing, just build it.

Ill just wander down the sheet and but a beretta engineering guide shall i?
Its stil far from easy

this all seems to have clouded the issue that more guns equal more shots fired equals more poeple dieing though.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by node
So why don't gun owners keep baseball bats instead? .

Because bad guys won't limit themselves to basball bats. Also,. I'd rather go up agianst a bad guy with a gun while packing myself than do the same situation with a baseball bat per each. I don't have to get as close, and it's not a battle of strength.

I'm done with this thread...jag clearly knows little about what he's saying, and hasn't really thought very much about it beyond what he's been told in school, other than to hope the evil guns go away.

People who live in places where the law-abiding people have been disarmed--be it AU or New Joisey--invent some amazing rationalizations about why it's better that way, and sour grapes can go a long way to resolve congitive dissonance. But simplistic reasoning like "if there are few guns then fewer crimes will be comitted with them" ignore all kinds of messy complicated details that go along with living in a real world filled with real people. More shots fired does *not* equal more people dieing, because that "reasoning" glosses over *who* is shooting and why. I've shot 200 rounds in the last ten days, and nobody died as a result.

[jaguar]

jag clearly knows little about what he's saying, and hasn't really thought very much about it beyond what he's been told in school, other than to hope the evil guns go away.

oh get over it. The simple statement i made which you seem to be determined to muddy to obscurity is that a heavily armed society will result is more deaths than a relatively lightly armed one. Its like saying that no more people will die in a nuclear war than a conventional one - heavier weaponary generally does result in more deaths....That is the purpose of it after all.

Since you want to talk down to me....

More shots fired does *not* equal more people dieing, because that "reasoning" glosses over *who* is shooting and why.

Actaully - i don't see why thats relavent, apart fomr target shots etc the more shots fired at people statisticly is going to result in more deaths... Irrispective of whether those peopel are "goodies" or "baddies" more people will die. That tends to be the result of esclations in weaponary, we're much better at killing people than we were 500 years ago because OHMYGOD we have better weaponary.

While it is very hard to remove high powered weaponary from a society as soaked with it as the US to argue that if everyone is equally heavily armed noone will get hurt really is a bit silly...

Not sink to being patronising or anything.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by jaguar
oh get over it. The simple statement i made which you seem to be determined to muddy to obscurity is that a heavily armed society will result is more deaths than a relatively lightly armed one.

Just because you *state* something you think is obvious dosen't make it *true*, and challenging you to back it up with reason isn't "muddying" it, except to the extent that it forces you to focus on how muddy it was to begin with.

I'm sorry, I just looked at your profile for the first time. I was about to pose an analogy from the Cold War to invite you to focus on the difference between "being armed" and "being violent", a distinction that sadly escapes many adults these days. But I had no idea how young you are; I've been trying to engage you as if you had much more life experience than you do, and it's just been falling over.

I'm also sorry if you feel talked-down-to, but the level of this conversation was beginning to feel as if it belonged in high school. Now I know why. It may be, as Clinton said, that it's good for young people to be angry. However, it's also good if they're a little selective in what they're angry *about*.

Let me offer you another quote: "Things should be made as simple as possible. But no simpler." --Albert Einstein.

[CharlieG]

Originally posted by jaguar
<snip>
CharlieG would need to be a damn fine machineist to make a high quality relaible semi-automatic pistol and ammunition that was capable of being mistaken for the real thing.

<snip>

Nah, not damn good - Remember, here in the US, a LOT of machinists made one for fun, sort of a right of passage. There are a LOT of gunsmiths who will make you one (It is legal).

With modern CNC machines, the problem is figuring out how to make the FIRST one, then writing the code.

That said, If I was going to make an illegal firearm, it'd be a Sten gun. THEY are trivial to make - like they were made in the Warsaw Ghetto during the uprising

You have to remember that the British lost more than men at Dunkirk - they lost almost every rifle in the country. Shepherd and Turpin designed a submachine gun that could be made VERY quickly, in almost any machine shop - one of the design goals was a cost of less than 5 pounds - they succeeded - it cost 2.5 pounds. Ammo is the hardest part - in particular, the primers

This is really simple to solve.

Jag - back it up.

Simple as that.

Get some facts and back up your assertions. Or try and reason them out better.

Remember: criminals will *always* have guns. Period. Do you want your police chasing after them with butterknives?

[russotto]

Originally posted by jaguar
YOur average customs XRAY eqipment is quite capable of seeing the gun hape, or at least ammunition.

this all seems to have clouded the issue that more guns equal more shots fired equals more poeple dieing though.

Because your "equal"s aren't. I once shot a whole case of ammo through a 9mm submachine gun, and no one was even injured. So more shots fired does not equal more people injured.

[Whit]

With modern CNC machines, the problem is figuring out how to make the FIRST one, then writing the code.

Actually, it's even easier than that. A good CAD program will do most of the work for you. A friend of mine custom makes paintball guns. The design is obviously different but discussions of how easy it would be to make a real one is pretty common at his shop.

[CharlieG]

Originally posted by Whit


Actually, it's even easier than that. A good CAD program will do most of the work for you. A friend of mine custom makes paintball guns. The design is obviously different but discussions of how easy it would be to make a real one is pretty common at his shop.

Actually, having a CAD/CAM system and CNC doesn't do ALL the work for you - you still have to figure out the order of operations yourself, as well as how to fixture the job. I'm NOT a professional machinist, BUT I do have some professional training as a machinist, and have a small machine shop in my basement (aka, I have too much respect for REAL machinists to call myself one)

It's amazing what you can do today