The heads may roll.

[depmats]

You know i read the thread about the possibility that Berg's slaughter was done by US agents, cells,... I won't say that it is impossible, but if we are going to look into the well for conspiracies, has anybody thought that Berg set himself up for this? No one has really been able to explain why he was in Iraq. I've heard he "wanted to help rebuild the country" and he "saw a business opportunity" but the way i understand it is there are not American civilians running around without body guards over there.

MAYBE - Berg purposely left clues to say he was detained by coalition forces, interrogated him and then let him go, just so that he could make the US look bad. He got in too deep with this group who actually went ahead with the kill. If his family has been so anti-war and anti-Bush, why would he have gone over there? I think junior fucked up and got in with the wrong group of bad guys over there.

Or I could be making it all up. But you have to admit there is just as much proof for this conspiracy as there is for the theory of US forces offing him in a little slight of hand move.

[Happy Monkey]

The latest conspiracy theory that I've seen is that the video was fake. I haven't seen the video, but the conspiracy theorist says that there's no blood from the head, there's no struggle, and the screaming sounds dubbed.

Any comments from people who have seen it?

[lookout123]

um, WTF? possible? maybe. plausible? i dunno.

[lookout123]

happy monkey - to the best of my ability i searched the net for that video and couldn't find it. only stories about it. FNC's version is the same one they showed on tv, obviously edited.

personally i think the masked men were trolls from under the bridge come to rid the earth of the human filth we have become. anyone able to prescribe something to get rid of these voices???

[tw]

Originally posted by depmats
I've heard he "wanted to help rebuild the country" and he "saw a business opportunity" but the way i understand it is there are not American civilians running around without body guards over there.

First stop listening to George Jr spin. Berg was over there looking for work. He was trying to start a company. He was not some volunteer trying to save Iraq from itself. That was a George Jr lie by spinning the facts.

Second, start listening to long interviews even on Charlie Rose (PBS). People routinely moved about Iraq in January often without guards. Today, virtually all western newsmen send out their Iraqi cameramen, and report from their hotel or other secure locations. Things in many parts have deteriorated that much even in Baghdad.

We had a window of oppurtunity, typically three or six months, to prove we could improve their plight. Instead we have only replaced a tryrant with streets so unsafe that Iraqis can only hope things will get better. Wwe could not even get the electricity fully restored. Had we installed intelligent leaders in Iraq (ie Gen Garner), then Iraqis would have been building their own country. But instead we even violated principles clearly spelled out in "The Art of War" - a 500 BC book. The principles were that well proven which tells you something about the government that is running this war. We fired anyone who could make the utilities even work. Dear god. Did anyone even bother to learn the lessons of post war Germany? No. The president's knowledge of the world was a one year crash course headed by Conduleeza Rice. He is that mentally ignorant of this world.

Finally Iraqis have had enough. Clearly things will only get better if the Americans are gone - their perspective. Does not matter what you think. That is what they think. After all the smart Iraqis, the ones who could have got electricity working in one month, were instead driven by Bremmer into the ranks of terrorists and liberation armies.

Well, we had our chance. But just like in the first Gulf War, the polictical leaders again threw away any possiblity of a complete victory. Now we must compromise - to save what little good we came to install. We destroyed our military victory because, again, political leadership failed to understand and develop a strategic objective. Those leaders viewed Iraq as some sort of prize rather than do their job. They even left 3rd Infantry without any after action orders, tasks, objectives, or missions. Looting, as predicted, was inevitable. Then those George Jr leaders even denied looting was ongoing! You heard Rumsfeld say just that on domestic TV. This failure directly traceable to the George Jr administration that believed their own rhetoric rather than the truths of Iraqi experts and ex-patriots. We now have the inevitable mess created by the political rhetoric of Geroge Jr and his principles.

Again, stop listening to George Jr spin. Berg was there trying to start a business when American failures were appearing on the streets - making westerners retire and remain in safe complexes or only with heavily armed guards. Berg tried to get out. Too late. The situation in Iraq had deteriorated that badly after he was finally released by Iraqis. Deteriorated except when Rumsfeld speaks. Stop listening to George Jr spin.

[depmats]

Originally posted by tw
People routinely moved about in January without guards. Today, virtually all western newsmen send out their Iraqi cameramen, and report from their hotel. Things in many parts have deteriorated that much.
.

Berg was walking around on Iraqi streets recently, not January. BTW, I didn't say that I really bought into the theory. But there is as much evidence for it as there is for a US backed murder for PR sake theory.

[tw]

Originally posted by depmats
Berg was walking around on Iraqi streets recently, not January. BTW, I didn't say that I really bought into the theory. But there is as much evidence for it as there is for a US backed murder for PR sake theory.

I did not say Berg was on the streets in Jan. But I will say that between the time he was taken off the streets and when released, things deteroriated much more. Remember, he was picked up, in part, because Iraqis were suspicious of a westerner without protection.

If one has a conspiracy theory, then one should first have supporting facts. Fact: Nichols was in the Phillippines. Before he went, his bombs did not work. After he came back, he was making good bombs. At least that was a fact - and still not enough for a valid conspiracy theory. I see nothing in this thread but classic junk science reasoning to say he was killed by a conspiracy. But we do see how badly the safety in Iraq has deteroriated since January - especially for Americans. Therein lies a fact. That deteroration is worth discussing - and not wild speculation of a conspriacy to murder Berg. It is the difference between one who thinks using emotion and one who first seeks the irrefutible fact. Irrefutible fact. Iraq is becoming less safe every month since January - except in the rhetoric of the George Jr administration.

[lookout123]

whether we went to iraq with good reason or not, that has been argued to death. the simple fact of the matter is that we ARE there. GWB called the war a victory far too soon. TW said it in another thread. unconditional surrender should have been achieved before calling 'major combat operations" over. saddam may have been out of power but there were, and are, a lot of people that are still willing to fight. there is no graceful way to withdraw, either we will have to mount major operations again or tuck tail and slink away. which do you think will leave the US in a more precarious position?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally posted by Happy Monkey
The latest conspiracy theory that I've seen is that the video was fake. I haven't seen the video, but the conspiracy theorist says that there's no blood from the head, there's no struggle, and the screaming sounds dubbed.

Any comments from people who have seen it?

I have it, at least a poor quality version, from Orgrish.Com. It's just the last part, with the speech part deleted. Looks pretty real but who knows. They found the body and shipped it home, but I didn't hear if the head was with it or not.

Interesting that Berg worked on the communications for the last Republican convention.

[Yelof]

either we will have to mount major operations again or tuck tail and slink away. which do you think will leave the US in a more precarious position?

definitely "mount major operations again"

plan early for "tuck tail and slink away" and it can be made look good.

do "mount major operations again" and loose the 20% who don't see America as occupier, might as well stick up posters and have towncriers run around shouting "join the resistance, this way to Al Queda"

[DanaC]

The video ( withthe speech) looked and sounded pretty real. Not saying it couldnt be a fake....very much didnt seem like one

do "mount major operations again" and loose the 20% who don't see America as occupier, might as well stick up posters and have towncriers run around shouting "join the resistance, this way to Al Queda"

I would tend to agree Yelof

[tw]

lookout123 posted:
whether we went to iraq with good reason or not, that has been argued to death. the simple fact of the matter is that we ARE there. GWB called the war a victory far too soon.

Things have not yet gotten so bad that the US could not change course and solve this Iraqi mess. One indicator is that the Ayatollahs did not put support behind the cleric Sahd. So we still have enough influence to get out with a solution. But that means we must first have a solution. Something that cannot be found in the polictal principles of this administration. IOW first we need leadership change so that the little experts can be consulted and empowered. We know that the Iraqi experts even in America have been completely ignored by this administration. Administration instead has god's wisdom and god's choosen president.

Fundamental - an honest broker must be brought into Iraq. This is definitely not America. America has burned credibility that was so strong only four years ago. In fact, American credibility as an honest broker here has been destroyed in virutally every continent. To begin recovering that respect, first we must eliminate the problem - George Jr. We need help from the UN or something equivalent to get out of Iraq. An ideal situation would be to have US replaced by the Arab League. It is, after all, the best hope we have always had for stability in the Middle East - once you remove the poltical neo-con rhetoric of the Vulcans.

However the Arab League is having enough problem just agreeing among themselves on other more basic problems. In the short term, I don't see an alternative involving the Arab League. But then nobody expected the Serbs to concede in the Balkans either. Superb negotiations by Holbrook made the impossible possible. Many in the world have these abilities. But clearly no such skill exists in the current administration. Especially with a president that had to be taught by Dr Rice what is where in the world. Maybe Powell could have done it. But he has long been tarnished - no longer credibile in the eyes of so many world leaders. Remember when the Israelis invaded Jenin? Powell would travel around the Med consulting world leaders. President of Egypt said what every world leader said. "Why are you not in Jerusalem where the problem really exists?" Some leaders refuse to see him. After the lies in a speech before the UN on WMD, well, George Jr has destroyed Powell's credibility.

We know this. America has no sufficient respect in Iraq or within the entire world to solve this problem. Respect for America has deteriorated that much in but three years. Some outside force - an honest broker - is required to solve Iraq. Would China, Russia, Germany and Japan be considered honest enough to solve this mess. Yes. But would they have the resources and willpower to solve America's mess. We created it. We would have to pay major to get them to solve our problems. Americans don't know how much Iraq will really cost - but would complain about any payments - economic, politcal etc, to fix our stupidity. The public just could not comprehend the less expensive solution.

Again, America has no solution other than unilateral withdraw or outright concession and replacement by an honest broker power. Both are major concessions and political course changes that this George Jr administration is not capable of executing - yet alone comprehending. They being so right wing extremist rather than pragmatic. US must be displaced by someone that the Ayatollahs would respect. IOW our only hope lies in those Ayatollahs who have quite smartly out thought Geroge Jr. Not that out thinking George Jr is that difficult. Those Ayatollahs are the heart of any solution we have for gettting out of Iraq. They and only they have the final say as to who that honest broker will be.

Unfortunately, this George Jr administration still acts as if Iraq were some sort of prize - unwilling to admit they were wrong. Hell. George Jr could not even apologize for the torture and sexual abuse of prisoners in Abu Ghirad! We expect him to admit that the current Iraq is not working? It would mean he first has to think AND stop listening to right wing, politically inspired extremists. Just will not happen. There is no light at the end of that tunnel. Tunnel is blocked by Vulcans - those who believe political rhetoric is always right - pragmatism and world knowledge be damned.

[wolf]

I'm tellin' yah now ... you heard it here first. Nicholas Berg was the East Coast John Walker Lind.

[russotto]

Originally posted by Happy Monkey
The latest conspiracy theory that I've seen is that the video was fake. I haven't seen the video, but the conspiracy theorist says that there's no blood from the head, there's no struggle, and the screaming sounds dubbed.

Any comments from people who have seen it?

The video I've seen is far too low quality to determine any of that. However, even if it were all true, it just means they cut his head off after he was dead already.

[jaguar]

IF anyone wants the video head over to cryptome.org , its' always the best place for that kind of stuff on the public web.