6/3/2003: Iraqi Dervish - Page 2

bjlhct · 06-04-2003, 11:59 PM

Unless it's proving it to their buddies.

Faithfuler than thou!

rumi · 06-15-2003, 09:02 PM

<i>I've always heard the term "whirling dervish" and never understood it.</i>

And you still don't. Sufism/dervishes and this picture are totally unrelated.

<i>It turns out that "dervish" is a Muslim sect especially in Turkey and Iran/Iraq. It's a fanatical sect (of Islam? surprise), a branch of the Sufi Islam which seems to be a bit more peaceful than the others (not a reach). </i>

Sheer idiocy on your part. "Dervish" is not a sect, it is simply a word meaning "student". Instead of showing the world what a moron you are, you might consider consulting an encylopedia once in a while.

The sufis are not a sect either; sufism is simply a spiritual dimension of mainstream Islam. To say sufism is fanatical is like saying 'psychology is a cucumber'. If you would like to learn about American sufi practioners (including the real Whirling Dervishes), check out http://www.sufism.org

Anyhow, I just have to point out for those that don't know: You are really, really dumb. Really. You remind me of Cliff Claven from Cheers-- making up things as you go along, in a futile attempt to look like you know something.

Undertoad · 06-15-2003, 09:55 PM

That's fine -- my info, in this case, came from the official caption, probably written by the AP. And they are often a little confused.

xoxoxoBruce · 06-15-2003, 10:19 PM

I was under the impression the Muslims followed the teachings of Mohammed and the Koran. Who gave this M.J. Rumi the authority to tell people how to go about following Mohammed's teachings. Is he like the "pope" of Islam? Or in the catagory of Ghandi?

rumi · 06-16-2003, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
I was under the impression the Muslims followed the teachings of Mohammed and the Koran. Who gave this M.J. Rumi the authority to tell people how to go about following Mohammed's teachings. Is he like the "pope" of Islam? Or in the catagory of Ghandi?

Yes, there is no pope in Islam, but that doesn't mean that everyone interprets scripture for themselves. The people who have authority to tell people how to go about following scripture are the scholars... if you want a western analogy, think of the legal system or the academic system. Everyone can read and understand the law, but it's the word of the judges and established academics who define exactly how to interpet the law. Your personal interpretation doesn't matter, because you don't have the necessary skills to do a proper legal interpretation. This isn't a coincidence, since both universities and elements of our legal system have roots in Al-Azhar university in Egypt. (Even the tradition of wearing robes at graduation comes from there.)

xoxoxoBruce · 06-16-2003, 09:04 AM

The problem with scholars is it comes from schoolers. As any student can tell you, the only way to successfully graduate is to agree with the teacher. Then, when the student becomes the teacher, the same ideas are carried on. When a scholar develops an independent line of thought, he can lobby his peers to accept it. But, it seems in Islam, anyone with independent thought is branded a heretic and killed.

juju · 06-16-2003, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rumi
Sheer idiocy on your part. "Dervish" is not a sect, it is simply a word meaning "student". Instead of showing the world what a moron you are, you might consider consulting an encylopedia once in a while.

Anyhow, I just have to point out for those that don't know: You are really, really dumb. Really. You remind me of Cliff Claven from Cheers-- making up things as you go along, in a futile attempt to look like you know something.

Come on, man. Don't be an asshole just because the internet lets you.

Simply not knowing much about an obscure subject only makes you ignorant of that subject. It doesn't make you a moron. And since no one can know everything about everything, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. He's at least shown an interest in the subject, I'd think that would count for something.

Like I said, you're being an asshole, and you're exploiting your knowledge to do it. I think that's disgusting.

OnyxCougar · 06-16-2003, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by juju

Like I said, you're being an asshole, and you're exploiting your knowledge to do it. I think that's disgusting.

Glad I'm not the only one to think so.

One can be educated without being belittled. If anything, the person doing the belittling is ignored just for that reason.

If you want to have a discussion on a topic and get your opinion across, it's not very effective to alienate your audience.

Undertoad · 06-16-2003, 02:22 PM

I didn't take rumi's advice and look it up in an encyclopedia. I looked it up in the dictionary. Just now.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=dervish

For the record then, all of the definitions given:

<li>A member of any of various Muslim ascetic orders, some of which perform whirling dances and vigorous chanting as acts of ecstatic devotion.

<li>One that possesses abundant, often frenzied energy.

<li>Word History: The word dervish calls to mind the phrases howling dervish and whirling dervish. Certainly there are dervishes whose religious exercises include making loud howling noises or whirling rapidly to induce a dizzy, mystical state. But a dervish is really the Muslim equivalent of a monk or friar, for the Persian word darvsh, the ultimate source of dervish, means “religious mendicant.” The word is first recorded in English in 1585.

<li>One of the fanatical followers of the Mahdi, in the Sudan.

<li>A Turkish or Persian monk, especially one who professes extreme poverty and leads an austere life.

<li>An ascetic Muslim monk; a member of an order noted for devotional exercises involving bodily movements

So there it is, and rumi, oh dear, none of them mention the word "student". I won't rub it in too hard though, because I'm a nice guy.

xoxoxoBruce · 06-16-2003, 04:40 PM

Quote:

I won't rub it in too hard though, because I'm a nice guy.

I will. Take that you silly heathen.:p

rumi · 06-16-2003, 04:59 PM

Dervishes are not a sect. They are student initiates in sufi orders. Sufism is not a sect either; they are brotherhoods/sisterhoods that Muslims (and occasionally some Christians and Jews) belong to. The definitions you cite are at best incomplete. The fellow in the photograph is more likely a circus performer than a sufi dervish.

I am very pleased, however, to see that you're taking the time to learn more. Keep it up, and I'm sure we'll see less inaccurate/xenophobic statements from you. If you really want to understand what it means to be a dervish, check out the aforementioned http://www.sufism.org and http://www.uga.edu/islam/ (written by U of Georgia professors). It's fascinating stuff. The latter is an incredible source of information, from an American perspective.

warch · 06-16-2003, 05:26 PM

Well thanks for the links. Seems the basic difference with the Sufi's is they encourage letting your freak flag fly to find god. This pisses off the rest of Islam, particularly those scholars that have secured the ability to get the straight scoop over the rest of the gang. I'll keep trying to learn.

Odd_Bloke · 06-16-2003, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rumi
I am very pleased, however, to see that you're taking the time to learn more. Keep it up, and I'm sure we'll see less inaccurate/xenophobic statements from you.

WHich brings up an interesting point: Is someone who knows no better actually being xenophobic?

rumi · 06-16-2003, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by warch
Well thanks for the links. Seems the basic difference with the Sufi's is they encourage letting your freak flag fly to find god. This pisses off the rest of Islam, particularly those scholars that have secured the ability to get the straight scoop over the rest of the gang. I'll keep trying to learn.

Not quite. Sufism are *not* a sect, it's simply the inner dimension of mainstream Islam. Those who reject it are a minority; it's mainly the Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia, etc. who are hostile to Sufism.

The mainstream scholars who accept sufi practices certainly aren't encouraging people let their 'freak flag fly to find God'. They strive to integrate the letter and the spirt of the law. You could say that the wahhabis focus only on the letter, while new age people focus only on the spirit.

Well, just keep on reading, the links will explain better than I can in this short space.

Undertoad · 06-16-2003, 06:17 PM

rumi, my user title used to be "sometimes wrong", until people made me change it because they got tired of looking at it.

I imagine I'm dead wrong about 20% of the time and somewhat incorrect another 20% of the time. But I can't tell the difference between the things I'm wrong about and the things I'm right about, because everything I write and say comes out of my own perspective, with imperfections all around.

06-04-2003, 11:59 PM	#16
bjlhct Theremin Master Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 73	Unless Unless it's proving it to their buddies. Faithfuler than thou!

06-15-2003, 09:02 PM	#17
rumi Resident-in-Training Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 7	<i>I've always heard the term "whirling dervish" and never understood it.</i> And you still don't. Sufism/dervishes and this picture are totally unrelated. <i>It turns out that "dervish" is a Muslim sect especially in Turkey and Iran/Iraq. It's a fanatical sect (of Islam? surprise), a branch of the Sufi Islam which seems to be a bit more peaceful than the others (not a reach). </i> Sheer idiocy on your part. "Dervish" is not a sect, it is simply a word meaning "student". Instead of showing the world what a moron you are, you might consider consulting an encylopedia once in a while. The sufis are not a sect either; sufism is simply a spiritual dimension of mainstream Islam. To say sufism is fanatical is like saying 'psychology is a cucumber'. If you would like to learn about American sufi practioners (including the real Whirling Dervishes), check out http://www.sufism.org Anyhow, I just have to point out for those that don't know: You are really, really dumb. Really. You remind me of Cliff Claven from Cheers-- making up things as you go along, in a futile attempt to look like you know something. Last edited by rumi; 06-15-2003 at 09:06 PM.

06-15-2003, 10:19 PM	#19
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	I was under the impression the Muslims followed the teachings of Mohammed and the Koran. Who gave this M.J. Rumi the authority to tell people how to go about following Mohammed's teachings. Is he like the "pope" of Islam? Or in the catagory of Ghandi? __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

06-16-2003, 09:04 AM	#21
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	The problem with scholars is it comes from schoolers. As any student can tell you, the only way to successfully graduate is to agree with the teacher. Then, when the student becomes the teacher, the same ideas are carried on. When a scholar develops an independent line of thought, he can lobby his peers to accept it. But, it seems in Islam, anyone with independent thought is branded a heretic and killed. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

06-15-2003, 09:55 PM	#18
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	That's fine -- my info, in this case, came from the official caption, probably written by the AP. And they are often a little confused.

06-16-2003, 02:22 PM	#24
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	I didn't take rumi's advice and look it up in an encyclopedia. I looked it up in the dictionary. Just now. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=dervish For the record then, all of the definitions given: <li>A member of any of various Muslim ascetic orders, some of which perform whirling dances and vigorous chanting as acts of ecstatic devotion. <li>One that possesses abundant, often frenzied energy. <li>Word History: The word dervish calls to mind the phrases howling dervish and whirling dervish. Certainly there are dervishes whose religious exercises include making loud howling noises or whirling rapidly to induce a dizzy, mystical state. But a dervish is really the Muslim equivalent of a monk or friar, for the Persian word darvsh, the ultimate source of dervish, means “religious mendicant.” The word is first recorded in English in 1585. <li>One of the fanatical followers of the Mahdi, in the Sudan. <li>A Turkish or Persian monk, especially one who professes extreme poverty and leads an austere life. <li>An ascetic Muslim monk; a member of an order noted for devotional exercises involving bodily movements So there it is, and rumi, oh dear, none of them mention the word "student". I won't rub it in too hard though, because I'm a nice guy.

06-16-2003, 04:59 PM	#26
rumi Resident-in-Training Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 7	Dervishes are not a sect. They are student initiates in sufi orders. Sufism is not a sect either; they are brotherhoods/sisterhoods that Muslims (and occasionally some Christians and Jews) belong to. The definitions you cite are at best incomplete. The fellow in the photograph is more likely a circus performer than a sufi dervish. I am very pleased, however, to see that you're taking the time to learn more. Keep it up, and I'm sure we'll see less inaccurate/xenophobic statements from you. If you really want to understand what it means to be a dervish, check out the aforementioned http://www.sufism.org and http://www.uga.edu/islam/ (written by U of Georgia professors). It's fascinating stuff. The latter is an incredible source of information, from an American perspective.

06-16-2003, 05:26 PM	#27
warch lurkin old school Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,796	Well thanks for the links. Seems the basic difference with the Sufi's is they encourage letting your freak flag fly to find god. This pisses off the rest of Islam, particularly those scholars that have secured the ability to get the straight scoop over the rest of the gang. I'll keep trying to learn.

06-16-2003, 06:17 PM	#30
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	rumi, my user title used to be "sometimes wrong", until people made me change it because they got tired of looking at it. I imagine I'm dead wrong about 20% of the time and somewhat incorrect another 20% of the time. But I can't tell the difference between the things I'm wrong about and the things I'm right about, because everything I write and say comes out of my own perspective, with imperfections all around.

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