Pennsylvania's Shiney New Construction Suppresion Law

[Griff]

"There are five inspections involved," Herr said, "footers and foundation, electrical, plumbing, structural and final."

stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid

If you are going to build in PA, get your permit before July1. The lets stop owner-building in its tracks law will be in effect after that. Our supervisors here are doing their best with it. They won't be hanging the cost of this monstrosity around the taxpayers necks, but builders will still have to pay. There is supposed to be an agricultural exemption so I'll get my garage permit on June 30 and build my barn later. Free country my ...

[tw]

Originally posted by Griff
"There are five inspections involved," Herr said, "footers and foundation, electrical, plumbing, structural and final."

Why stupid? Those have long been the five standard inspections. Those five inspections were required even 50 years ago where ever I lived. Those five inspections are trivial and, too often, necessary. This from too many decades of personal experience. BOCA code was also important to make those inspections more effective.

[Troubleshooter]

Some of these types of regulations can get out of hand though.

In Florida, an architect won't design a house with closets greater than 10 square feet unless it is shaped in such a way as to allow a wheelchair to turn around.

[tirade]IT'S A FUCKING CLOSET PEOPLE, NOT A COMMON AREA![/tirade]

[Beestie]

I don't see the problem. Sounds like PA is adopting a state-wide building code program and following up to make sure the inspectors are up to the task.

As a former architect, I applaud any effort to standardize and make more uniform the requirements to get a building built.

After I read your post but before reading the article, I assumed that this was about some sort of protectionism thing to benefit organized labor in the construction industry to the detriment of non-union workers and owners.

After I read the article, it seems fine to me. Easy permits and lax inspections are not necessarily a good thing. What builders need is a thorough understanding of the requirements and to not be held up by backlogged inspectors. Sounds like PA is addressing both of these concerns.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally posted by Troubleshooter
Some of these types of regulations can get out of hand though.

In Florida, an architect won't design a house with closets greater than 10 square feet unless it is shaped in such a way as to allow a wheelchair to turn around.

[tirade]IT'S A FUCKING CLOSET PEOPLE, NOT A COMMON AREA![/tirade]

That sounds pretty useful for resale in Florida.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally posted by Happy Monkey
That sounds pretty useful for resale in Florida.

Fuck resale. If I want a closet that runs the the whole length of my wall, and my wall is 12 feet long, I don't want to have make my closet four feet deep to please ADA requirements.

It's my house, and it's not a safety issue.

[Griff]

[obvious]You guys are right, people should not be allowed to build in a manner which satisfies their desires. Tyranny of the experts is good. Long live the nanny state. [/sarcasm]

Everyone cares about some kind of freedom. I believe in being free to create what I want to create. If I want a stacked stone foundation, I don't want some underemployed engineer swinging by to inspect, fail, and declare uninhabitable my home. If I want to live without electricity or running water the same goes. Do you guys really believe that the state should have an interest in this? I am shocked that you find these little jobs programs for the incompetent more important than a persons right to live in the manner he wishes. I'm grinding my teeth here trying to be civil, I just can't believe what I'm reading.

[Beestie]

Originally posted by Griff ... I believe in being free to create what I want to create. If I want a stacked stone foundation, I don't want some underemployed engineer swinging by to inspect, fail, and declare uninhabitable my home. If I want to live without electricity or running water the same goes.

Which part of the new regs says you can't live without electricity? But, if you wire a home addition, it needs to be wired properly. And, as far as I can tell, the only way your stacked stone foundation would fail is if it were structurally unsound. What am I missing here?

This is pretty much how it works in the rest of the country and its a good thing. Do you want to buy a house that was built like crap? What happens when Harry the Homeowner does his own wiring, and builds his own foundation (both without any inspection), realizes that he's F'd it up beyond repair, sells the house and it burns down and falls down? The public is best served when all construction meets the universally (in America anyway) accepted building codes.

Sounds to me like y'all have been getting away with murder up there (I noticed that there are only 2 states left that don't require the same inspection procedure). I'm not sure that I'd complain about your building codes and enforecement thereof being the 48th laxest in the country. I don't understand why you feel this is out-of-control government intervention. PA isn't jumping ahead of the curve its catching up to the curve. My $.02, anyway.

[tw]

Originally posted by Griff
Everyone cares about some kind of freedom. I believe in being free to create what I want to create. If I want a stacked stone foundation, I don't want some underemployed engineer swinging by to inspect, fail, and declare uninhabitable my home.

Griff has just advocated the freedom to murder - calling it acceptable because it was due to ignorance. In another discussion, many so called computer experts don' t bother to learn basic facts - and even promote scams. They assemble clone computers with power supplies defective even by 30 year old standards. But at least those scammer don't murder people.

Griff demands the right to murder 167 innocent people in Southgate Ky on 28 May 1977. Some escaped only to walk away, stop, keel over, and later due to toxic fumes. This is what Griff advocates because he feels anyone is smarter than the technically trained. Or is it classic George Jr reasoning - the politics always justifies both the ends and means? The technically trained only spent decades learning lessons proven by history. He must be stupid because Griff says freedom is more important.

Griff. You openly and callously advocate a total disregard for human life. Screw the lessons of history. You know better because of your conservative political beliefs? Tell it to another who advocates same - Ariel Sharon. How typically right wing extremist of you to advocate your righteous interests as superior to another human life.

from Inside the Beverly Hills Supper Club Fire
Not obvious was the fact that Mr Schilling had designed and built the room without the benefit of any professional help, had obtained no building permit, or that the construction had undergone no inspections of any kind. Fate held a dark role for this room. Again, we did not learn until too late that the uninspected electrical wiring was flawed. These factors, in conjunction with the physical location of the Zebra Room - under the unenclosed stairway and next to the main hallway [another code violation] - produced a true prescription for disaster.

The electrician who installled the wiring in the Zebra Room admitted that he was aware that failure to place wiring in metal conduit was a violation of the NEC. He told the investigators that, "Mr Schilling provided all the materials used in the Zebra Room... The wiring was number twelve, non-metallic wire, was not run through conduit as specified in the code... and [Mr Schilling] advised [me] that he had permission to use these type supplies and wiring in the building. ...

I am disappointed in the simple conclusion that the fire was "electrical in nature." It has always been my understanding that the actual cause of the fire was that aluminum wiring was spliced to copper wiring in the Zebra Room. I'm told that this is a violation of electrical codes because the two materials are incompatible, and that, over time, such a junction will corrode and overheat.

Damn straight that such wiring will kill people. You expect people who don't even know simple, basic, fundamental, functions in a PC power supply to also understand the grave (167 of them) dangers of connecting copper to aluminum? Griff's says these same people should have the right to build as they please.

Governor Carroll ... went particularly hard on Mr Schilling, citing construction activities in violation of the law beause of no building permit and using non-code materials, employing an unregistered architect and then modifying the drawings himself, lack of reasonable care in developing an evacuation plan, and over-crowding.

So who was this Mr Schilling? A cheap bastard only out for a profit? Not according to the author who cites again and again Mr Schilling's special regard for people, customers, and his employees. In fact Mr Schilling even recovered (or stole) the tip book from a crime scene so that employees could receive their last paychecks. But Mr Schilling was doing what most readers here would do if code inspections were not required. Mr Schilling did exactly what Griff advocates - because political agendas are more important than human life.

Am I saying most poeple here are that corrupt? No. Inspections, more than verifying code enforcement, are a major source of well proven and new safety code information. Those inspections are what make it possible for the technically naive to be creative - without killing humans. Griff disagrees.

If we were a more responsible nation, then only those with years of education and licenses after extensive testing would be permitted to build anything. However this is America where innovative people are necessary and essential. Mr Schilling was one of those very inciteful and innovative people - built a spectaculor club - but who simply had no appreciation for simple, well proven building requirements and the lessons of history. Just more reasons why those five inspections are essential. Some very good people are so easily corrupted by convenience as to even murder 167 people. Those inspections are what keep the so creative people honest. Since Mr Schilling did not have construction permits and building inspections, then he killed 167 people - out of mental and technical ignorance.

Griff may not like reality. But reality is that building inspections are necessary for human safety.

Inspections should never be considered sufficient for human safety. But inspections are a most powerful building tool we have to keep the creator honest and to confirm that the lessons from so many dead people are not lost in vain. I am sorry, Griff. But I have seen, too often, near misses (potential killing events) simply because of the ill educated advocate their rights over safety of others. Presented as Exhibit A - a big capital A in your face - are the 167 victims of the Beverly Hills Supper Club Fire - because someone else thought just as Griff advocates.

An apology by Griff to those victims is appropriate because he says their deaths are irrelevant.
May 28, 1977
The Fire that Still Rages
NFPA
Eventually, the temperature in the Cabaret Room would hit 2,000 degrees
Cabaret Room where 90 people died was between 120 and 260 feet at other end of building from where the fire started.
It will be with me until the day I die
What Griff advocates because freedom is more important than well proven technology and reality. Some of that reality - the morgue that a very conservative Griff fears to consider:

[wolf]

Originally posted by tw

It will be with me until the day I die

Really, really BAD ad placement on above-quoted page:

[wolf]

It's not solely about building to code, you know.

Bad shit still happens

There are also different standards applied to public space than private space. We have a lot of toxic materials just lying around our houses.

[Beestie]

Griff has just advocated the freedom to murder - calling it acceptable because it was due to ignorance.

Dear Lord. Griff said nothing of the kind.

The standards Griff is bitching about are for SINGLE-FAMILY structures. Your post centers on issues with commercial building codes which has nothing to do with Griff's post or his point.

[tw]

Originally posted by Beestie
The standards Griff is bitching about are for SINGLE-FAMILY structures. Your post centers on issues with commercial building codes which has nothing to do with Griff's post or his point.

Do firemen go into single family dwellings? Yes. Does anyone else beside Griff go inside his house? Yes. May children even be inside that building? Yes.

Cited quite accurately is why even single family dwellings require building inspections. Griff has no right building a home that could endanger other human life. But because we are so tolerant, we don't require him to take a decade of education. We simply let architects and inspectors correct his mistakes and show him how to build smarter. It does not take even the slightest intelligence to see what applied to the Beverly Hills Supper Club also applies to other large structures such as homes. What also burns down single homes? Mixing aluminium and copper wire inside walls - just like in the Beverly Hills Supper Club.

Homes are also large structures. Generations of experience and too many lost lives prove the need for inspections in single family homes. Griff is only bitching due to his right wing extremist viewpoint. Are you too as right wing extremist as to feel your rights supercede other human life?

Meeting inspections is so trivial when one learns basic construction knowledge. Why bitch about inspections when only fools would build so badly as to not meet code? What do stark amateurs do in Habitat for Humanity? Routinely build homes that routinely pass inspection. Or in the case of Homestead FL, build homes that even Hurricane Andrew did not destroy. Code and inspection are there for very good reason as proven by history - despite right wing extremist rhetoric about intrusive government.

[Beestie]

Originally posted by tw without first making any attempt to answer his/her own question by reading what others have posted in the very thread he is filling up with his/her own brand of self-rightous indignation

Are you too as right wing extremist as to feel your rights supercede other human life?

[biting lip hard]If you are asking this question then its pretty clear you didn't read my posts in this thread in which case I have nothing further to say to you on the matter. I actually read your post in this thread which is more than I can say for you.
[/biting lip hard]

[russotto]

Originally posted by tw
that could endanger other human life. But because we are so tolerant, we don't require him to take a decade of education.

Oh, yes, so tolerant as to let a person build his own home on his own land, after he gets lots of permits and inspections. What a free and independent society we are today.

What also burns down single homes? Mixing aluminium and copper wire inside walls

Yes. And most of that done _by professional builders_ to the code at the time.