Has our intelligence dropped to zero already?

[BigV]

From here to here.

This is a good articulation of what I was trying to express. She's right, it works.

[lookout123]

two completely different sets of circumstances BigV. a newly adopted (previously abused and neglected) child being restrained and held by a new parent to prevent injury vs. a child in school being a complete demon. if the schoolkid's parent had bothered to show up then they could have chosen to pin her down and love her - that isn't the role of a teacher or a cop.

the teacher is there to teach a number of kids. if one is out of control you remove that child. spending inordinate amounts of time "loving" that child into a calm rational state would be an incorrect use of the teacher's time and energy.

[Happy Monkey]

Whereas arresting a five-year-old having a temper tantrum is a correct use of the time and energy of the police.

[lookout123]

i don't know - i wasn't there. i do know that if she is destructive and cannot be controlled in the classroom she needs to be removed. if the parent or guardian was contacted but didn't show up and the destructive behavior continues then there aren't a lot of attractive options. i went to a school that would have just pummeled my ass if i had behaved like that. i had parents that would have crushed my ass when i got home if i behaved like that. maybe that knowledge is why i never behaved like that. maybe, just maybe, this kid might remember getting tossed into the back of a squad car next time and not go on a little rampage.

[Happy Monkey]

That's what the principal is for.

I just found it odd that your complaint was about wasting a teacher's time, and your solution was an even bigger waste of police time.

[lookout123]

yeah, i know HM. i've got mixed feelings on this. i understand what BigV is saying. love the kids. my beef is with the idea that the teacher should just love the kids into compliance - eff that. they are there to teach. if one child disrupts the learning experience for the rest of the kids - get rid of that kid. yes i know that is cold and callous but i don't care. if the teacher is forced to take time away from the other kids to deal with an unruly brat who obviously has no parental involvement in their discipline, that is just not right.

as far as the cops? that is their job - to respond to problems. school calls and says we've got an out of control child and the parents aren't coming - the cops respond. they subdue, restrain, and remove the child. the cops did their job and the teacher can get back to doing theirs.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by lookout123

as far as the cops? that is their job - to respond to problems. school calls and says we've got an out of control child and the parents aren't coming - the cops respond. they subdue, restrain, and remove the child. the cops did their job and the teacher can get back to doing theirs.

A five year old having a temper tantrum isn't a law enforcement problem. It's what any teacher or principal of an elementary school should be willing and able to deal with. The teacher should get the kid to the principal and get back to class, and the principal should either handle the tantrum or pass the kid off to a counselor. When kids get older, that line can get blurry, but five is solidly in the "school can handle it" range.

[wolf]

I thought we had covered this at least partially ... school policy doesn't allow the staff to contact the students. Their hands are tied, if you'll excuse the expression, so they have to go to the next step (calling the cops) to control an out of control child.

[Happy Monkey]

I'm not assigning blame, since I don't know all the rules and regulations the teacher/principal/police were operating under. But I am saying that there is blame to be assigned, on the part of the school. If it's the rulemakers, so be it. I decried zero tolerance policies earlier on this thread, and that also applies to zero tolerance policies against teachers touching students.

[BigV]

I didn't revive this thread to reignite the sh*tstorm. I wanted to draw attention to a beautiful essay. There *was* a line in there that reminded me of my thoughts surrounding the thread, something along the lines of ...

Luke kicked and screamed. I stood between him and the door to keep him from bolting. His cries were anguished, animal-like. He had never seen a mirror and tried to escape by running through one. I wound my arms around him so he could not hit or kick. After an hour and a half he finally fell asleep, exhausted.

Which soon transformed into...

The next day we met orphanage officials to do paperwork. Luke was on my lap as they filed into the room. He looked at them and wrapped my arms tightly around his waist.

There is an awesome power in the human touch. Like many things powerful, it can be used for good or ill. In the story of the little girl, I was sad because the fear of being accused of using that power for ill prevented the adults involved from using it for good.

In the second story, the powerful good that can come from using is showcased triumphantly. The stories are very different, but they share an identical core: A totally freaked out little kid, and an adult that has the chance to use that power for good.

[Pie]

Originally Posted by BigV

In the second story, the powerful good that can come from using is showcased triumphantly. The stories are very different, but they share an identical core: A totally freaked out little kid, and an adult that has the chance to use that power for good.

Well, we tried the "love" method on my (adopted, abused, etc.) little brother. Didn't work. He hasn't spoken to anyone in my family in 9 years -- told us all to f*** off. It's great to wax eloquent about the power of love, but there are a great many people already beyond that power.
- Pie

[dar512]

Originally Posted by BigV

There is an awesome power in the human touch.

I don't think anyone disagrees with that here, V. But the adoptor had the right and priviledge to hug the boy. Your average teacher does not.

The teachers at my wife's school are warned at the beginning of every year what the restrictions are. They are told not to even attempt to handle situations like this. The principal or the vice-principal must be called in immediately.

Gradeschool teachers make little enough as it is. I would be very upset with my wife if she risked everything we own on an out of control kid.

Question - would the cops in the situation have been open for lawsuits if they physically restrained the child instead of using handcuffs?

[BigV]

Pie, I'm sorry to hear about the sad story of your little brother. My sympathies.



He wasn't 5 or 6 years old when he signed off, was he? I hope not. Respectfully, your experience posted here notwithstanding, I must disagree with your conclusion that a great many people are beyond the power of love. (Or perhaps you meant beyond the power of touch--I believe that is possible, but there are more ways to express love than through touch.)

I wield that power, inexpertly at best. I have many chances every day to respond to the world around me and the people in it. My actions reflect this belief when I am at my best. Unfortunately, I am not always at my best. But that does not diminsh the power of love, nor my belief in it. It does motivate me to strive to become better. And so far, that striving has always been in the direction of more love, never in the direction of less love.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by dar512

I don't think anyone disagrees with that here, V. But the adoptor had the right and priviledge to hug the boy. Your average teacher does not.

The teachers at my wife's school are warned at the beginning of every year what the restrictions are. They are told not to even attempt to handle situations like this. The principal or the vice-principal must be called in immediately.

Gradeschool teachers make little enough as it is. I would be very upset with my wife if she risked everything we own on an out of control kid.

Question - would the cops in the situation have been open for lawsuits if they physically restrained the child instead of using handcuffs?

Dar, first of all, I salute your wife for her underpaid, underappreciated, and undervalued service to our children. I thank her for the contribution she makes to the society I live in, the society my family lives in. Please feel free to extend my gratitude to her on my behalf.

The adoptor had the right, privelege and the obligation to hold that little boy. In a situation like that, what other way could communicate what had to be communicated? Language barrier, social barriers, literally strangers, traumatized, out of control child, and dangers to the child all around. How do you get the message through? How do you get the attention first so that other obstacles can be overcome? I will freely acknowledge that every situation has its own unique considerations. But I think you and I will agree that to get something across to another person, you must first have that person's attention. I could blather on here without end, but without your attention which you generously give, it would matter not at all. (It may also be true that even with your attention, it would not matter, but I say attention is necessary, not sufficient.)

I did call my school and the rules there are that the teacher is permitted to use their judgement. That judgement may include "touching" or holding the child. A common sense understanding. I agree with the policy, and I hope common sense reigns when my son or daughter is the child in question. That includes the actions of the principal and the vice-principal when they're called to action.

As to the police officers' options--we live in a litigious society. I think the difficult work they do puts them in harm's way on the street and in the court, with only some respect to their actions. Sometimes they're wrongly accused, sometimes their misdeeds go unpunished, and sometimes justice prevails.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by lookout123

i don't know - i wasn't there. i do know that if she is destructive and cannot be controlled in the classroom she needs to be removed. if the parent or guardian was contacted but didn't show up and the destructive behavior continues then there aren't a lot of attractive options. i went to a school that would have just pummeled my ass if i had behaved like that. i had parents that would have crushed my ass when i got home if i behaved like that. maybe that knowledge is why i never behaved like that. maybe, just maybe, this kid might remember getting tossed into the back of a squad car next time and not go on a little rampage.

Amen.