Food Deserts and Inequality in Access to Nutrition.

[Ibby]

Here's what I'm seeing, flint. This is admittedly just a quick look, not a rigorous mathematical analysis, so you might not see the same trends I do - but to me the blue shades look to be a lot more desert-y.

[Flint]

Originally Posted by Ibby

Here's what I'm seeing, flint. This is admittedly just a quick look, not a rigorous mathematical analysis, so you might not see the same trends I do - but to me the blue shades look to be a lot more desert-y.

I think it's best to consider #1 that most of the map is actually purple, and #2 that highly complex patterns like this are going to be very susceptible to confirmation bias. These maps look much too detailed to support a definitive conclusion, without overlaying them directly.

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by Flint

I think it's best to consider #1 that most of the map is actually purple, and

I disagree. At the county level, every county is either (possibly light) red or (possibly light) blue, it only looks purple from a distance because of the way your brain blends the shades. In relation to my point about the south, the bluer an area is - even if its still reddish-purple across multiple counties or precincts or whatever - the less white it is, on average. It also looks more likely, on average, to be in a food desert, especially controlling for how densely populated the small inner-city deserts are, on the map, to me. I already know it to be a fact that communities of color are more affected by food deserts, and therefore pointing out that I think the map visually shows that is valid, even if you disagree if you can actually see the pattern visually.

Originally Posted by Flint

#2 that highly complex patterns like this are going to be very susceptible to confirmation bias.

Which is why the vast amount of other data showing that things like this overwhelmingly affect communities of color, and that the effect of it is extremely broad but subtle, correlating well to the known correlation between southern vote distribution and race, works up to a fairly solid and statistically testable hypothesis. And, in fact, I'm absolutely certain that i could write a literal essay on it for a stats class if i took one. As it is, I'm simply too lazy to add up all the land area counted as food deserts that effect predominantly PoC vs area that effects PoC, controlling for population density, and keeping in mind the overall population of PoC in America... etc etc

Originally Posted by Flint

These maps look much too detailed to support a definitive conclusion, without overlaying them directly.

the maps alone, no. The overwhelming data from multiple fields and sources that say this is an issue among communities of color, however, can be visually reenforced by the fact that another pattern that highlights regions predominantly of color is the voting distribution in the south, and both can be mapped to show visual patterns, for the spacially-oriented.

[Flint]

Look, your position isn't convincingly supported by the evidence at hand. I'm not arguing the veracity of your position, or how many other factors weigh in to how you formed it. You made a statement specifically about a conclusion that can be reached from these maps, but it can't be reached from these maps. You were reaching, and you over-reached. I tried to inquire politely, but your answers became progressivley more vague. I'm not 'out to get you' on this, I'm just interested in a solid, well-founded defense of a claim which I wasn't personally able to confirm based on the evidence you presented. Now, you're saying it is supported by all this other stuff. That's fine, just don't say it's based on these maps unless you intend to back that claim. Either back it or retract it--these would be the two intellectually honest options you have.

The 'force' of an opinion, alone, is not a good indicator of accuracy. If it was indicated by the evidence, it wouldn't require you to force it.

Originally Posted by Ibby

the maps alone, no. The overwhelming data from multiple fields and sources ...

This is the definition of confirmation bias. You'e projected a conclusion upon the evidence. This is backwards to how science works.

[piercehawkeye45]

Since when did Appalachia have a good diet? I thought Tennessee and Kentucky would just be one big food desert...

Or maybe I shouldn't buy into that stereotype as much?

[DanaC]

Nicely put Sam.

I especially liked this line:

And that’s if you leave the kids alone at home to amuse themselves by setting fire to the water coming out of the tap in the kitchen sink.

You know, you really are a fucking good writer.

[orthodoc]

I know all about dragging four small children along on grocery shopping trips. Navigating a huge parking lot with a bunch of preschoolers and a baby was terrifying. I know there are all sorts of situations. It's the general principles I'm talking about.

My point re my m-i-l was that her trips took real effort, they weren't a mere stroll. At 84, navigating the hills on the way to the store wasn't easy, nor was pulling the cart. She lived on far less than poverty level income so the cost of the cart was significant to her, but she made it a priority. She didn't have Pampers to buy but also didn't have WIC or other programs.

I think the maps offer some food for thought, but a much closer look is needed. And while some single moms may find it impossible to get to the store (although how do they get anywhere, then? Do they never leave the apartment?), part of public health planning is to get programs going that bring the 'store' right into the neighborhood, whether as farmer's markets or coops or community gardens. Living in urban areas is actually more friendly to walking, as glatt says. I know an urban planner in Denver who is frustrated beyond reason with the typical suburban planning layout, who wants to plan small urban-style neighborhoods where you can walk to all the important stores and services. Anyway ... plenty of food for thought and planning.

[DanaC]

All the strategies people can employ to alleviate their health inequality/state of mind in the face of grinding poverty are fine for a few days, or weeks, or months. The 2 mile walk to the supermarket with kids and shopping, the homegrown bits and bobs, the daily shopping of marked down veg and meats etc etc.

But every day in poverty, 365 days a year, every year, with no real sense of anything being truly changeable saps the will.

[Sundae]

Originally Posted by DanaC

But every day in poverty, 365 days a year, every year, with no real sense of anything being truly changeable saps the will.

I've never really been there. My gripes have been more about working with people who earn two or three times my salary and comparing my life to theirs. "We're a team sounds hollow when your big treat every month is buying a cold bottle of Diet Coke and theirs is going to The Ivy. It's certainly not their fault, but if it hurt me when I was working full time I can see how it chafes people who find themselves unable to.

I've been in the same general area though. And it has to be part of your life. I remember resenting a documentary about women on benefits - or something like that - because she had branded condiments. Hang on! I want HP Sauce too! I buy my eggs singly and my fresh food every day because I can't afford any waste!

But you cut your cloth. You have to. And it takes planning, and time and commitment to live healthily on a low income when you are responsible for every penny.

Lucky here now. Never go without toilet paper or washing up liquid or washing powder in order to eat. I feel genuine pity for those without a safety net. No matter how bad things felt, I always had one.

[Rhianne]

Are there beer or tobacco deserts I wonder?

But what has really surprised me most about this thread is that no-one has asked what Clodfobble does with 20 pounds of zucchini each week.

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by Rhianne

Are there beer or tobacco deserts I wonder?

But what has really surprised me most about this thread is that no-one has asked what Clodfobble does with 20 pounds of zucchini each week.

Apart from Muslim countries, in the US we have Dry Counties.

Here's a map:
Red=Dry
Yellow=Mixed
Blue=Wet

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by glatt

I walk along inner city streets every single day and they are the easiest streets to walk along. You have wide sidewalks and intersections with crosswalks and signals. The traffic is so heavy that the cars never get above about 20 mph. Pedestrians pretty much rule in the city.

It gets a little worse in the suburbs, because you don't have as many signals and you don't have sidewalks on many streets. Traffic goes around 40 mph, so your time to cross the street is shorter before going splat.

It's been a long time since I've visited the Arlington/DC area. I used to get over there a couple of times a year because my ex-husband grew up in Arlington and still had family there. Sounds like things are still about the way I remember them. Back when I made my first visits to the DC area, I was really impressed by the Metro which was only recently completed back then.. I loved to walk down the mile or so from my ex's family home to the nearest metro station and ride under the Potomac and into DC, so we could stroll around and visit the Smithsonian and all the rest.

But isn’t “inner city” DC kind of an exception to the inner city of parts of NYC and other major metro areas? I don’t know because DC is the only inner city area I have experience with other than Denver and there’s no comparison.

I spent far too much of my life in Colorado Springs (metro area pop 500,000), and THAT city is awful. The bus system is bad, speed limits can be as high as 50mph on streets that go through major business areas and many times there are no sidewalks.

As Dana might say, you're spot on about the woes of being a pedestrian in a rural area

Originally Posted by orthodoc

I know all about dragging four small children along on grocery shopping trips. Navigating a huge parking lot with a bunch of preschoolers and a baby was terrifying. I know there are all sorts of situations. It's the general principles I'm talking about.

My point re my m-i-l was that her trips took real effort, they weren't a mere stroll. At 84, navigating the hills on the way to the store wasn't easy, nor was pulling the cart. She lived on far less than poverty level income so the cost of the cart was significant to her, but she made it a priority. She didn't have Pampers to buy but also didn't have WIC or other programs.

Must have been a major pain in the ass, doc, and you had a car. Moms should all be given medals for just not going insane. I’m in complete agreement about the principle.

I guess I was a little snippy about the cart. I had a bit of resentment over those little carts because there was a time in my life when I had to walk a mile or so to the grocery store and could barely afford the rent, never mind any extras. Sometimes I would “borrow” one of those smaller carts the stores now have and wheel home my groceries in it. I’d return it on my next trip. Your MIL was an exceptional lady, but I have to respectfully differ with you as to whether she is a good analogy to an urban Mom with 3 or 4 little kids.

Originally Posted by Rhianne

Are there beer or tobacco deserts I wonder?

Thank dog, those are few and far between! People of all income brackets and ages do love their vices. Those corner stores carry smokes and any town with a population of more than 500 always has a liquor store which also carries cigarettes.

Originally Posted by Rhianne

But what has really surprised me most about this thread is that no-one has asked what Clodfobble does with 20 pounds of zucchini each week

Me too. I assume she juices them?

@ Dana: You’re so sweet. TY!

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by SamIam

Thank dog, those are few and far between! People of all income brackets and ages do love their vices. Those corner stores carry smokes and any town with a population of more than 500 always has a liquor store which also carries cigarettes.

It varies so much state to state. You can't buy cigs at liquor stores in NY, You can't even buy mixers; only wine and liquor. Grocery stores can sell beer. In VT, just across the road, you can buy beer, wine, liquor, cigs, mixers, lottery tickets, candy etc at the state liquor stores, Beer and wine at grocery stores.

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by footfootfoot

In VT, just across the road, you can buy beer, wine, liquor, cigs, mixers, lottery tickets, candy etc at the state liquor stores, Beer and wine at grocery stores.

Technically true, but they have to ring you up twice/give you two receipts: one from the Vermont Liquor Outlet with ONLY your liquors over 20% and one from the private store with everything else. The one in Winooski has two separate checkouts/registers; the one on Pearl st. here in Burlington just does it all on one register, I think, which separates out the tickets.

The liquor store itself, therefore, can only sell liquors, but is, afaik, always attached to a store that sells the rest.

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by footfootfoot

It varies so much state to state. You can't buy cigs at liquor stores in NY, You can't even buy mixers; only wine and liquor. Grocery stores can sell beer. In VT, just across the road, you can buy beer, wine, liquor, cigs, mixers, lottery tickets, candy etc at the state liquor stores, Beer and wine at grocery stores.

Every states does seem to have its own set of laws most of which make no sense. In Colorado the grocery and convenience stores are allowed to sell only 3.2 beer and wine coolers. Liquor stores, in addition to selling every kind of alcoholic product known to man, also sell mixers, FRESH lemons and limes, and smokes. No duplicate receipts required. Cigarettes can be purchased just about anywhere.

Marijuana can be bought legally only at a medical marijuana dispensary and you have to have a special card issued by the state. I'm interested to see what will happen once marijuana for the masses becomes legal after the first of the year.

At least OUR low income people have ready access to fresh sources of vitamin C, so there's no excuse for any outbreaks of scurvy in Colorado.