5/16/2002 [Extra] - Innocence Lost

bobspoon · 05-16-2002, 06:42 AM

Young Feyenoord Fan

Thought this picture might make an interesting parallel to some we've seen recently.

I'm always saddened by pictures of very young children showing that they're against something, whether it's by waving a banner in a march against GM foods, strapping fake explosives around their waists or this. A child's mind is a beautiful thing, wonderfully open and curious, and I think of it as a form of abuse when a parent lets their own flesh and blood get corrupted like this.

It's not as it should be.

For those not into football (or soccer, if you wish), this chap is wearing the colours of Feyenoord Rotterdam, who won the UEFA Cup this month, and it looks like the photo was taken at a match.

jtm · 05-16-2002, 11:53 AM

The only time I get into sports is during the Olympics, so I'm not exposed to the rabid fans, but why are "Football" (i.e. soccer) fans so fanatical? Soccer related riots in England and other parts of Europe seem par for the course. Are there more alcohol in those games? Less police presence? Why are American football (as in NFL, etc.) and baseball games as prone to violence and deepseated hatred of opposing teams?

Slight · 05-16-2002, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jtm
...Are there more alcohol in those games?...

That's it, this kid has been drinking way too much. Notice the double mud flap girls on his jersey. He's a real football hooligan.

verbatim · 05-16-2002, 07:42 PM

The kid's got an earring too. Wouldnt be suprised if this kid actually knew what that meant.

bobspoon, you are absolutely right. It should be a crime to warp a little kid's mind like this. Its terrible, its a crime against humanity.

I guess you could liken these football demonstrations to the Isreal/Palestinian conflict, minus the whole land thing and suicide bombings and stuff like that. Its almost learned behavior.

Undertoad · 05-16-2002, 09:28 PM

jtm, I read a book about it by a "participatory journalist" -- this guy actually lived with them for a while. It's a violence subculture that's just as addictive to the participants as drugs. And yes, it's accompanied by massive drinking.

My guess, too, is that it's something more prone to happen in a gun-controlled society. Why: because it's violent, but not quite as likely to be deadly and more likely to last a bit longer. There's no fun in a gun shot, at least not the sort of adrenaline-building fun these people are going for. It's all over too fast with guns.

bobspoon · 05-17-2002, 03:36 AM

Perhaps it also has something to do with soccer being such a global sport, and the dislike you get between fans of opposing teams from countries with historical difficulties. It doesn't surprise me much when the crowds in an England-Argentina match seethe with tension, given that they were at war only two decades ago. The media in general like to stoke up racial tensions to get their own point across, and that often breeds discontent and hatred of certain groups of people, which you'll see reflected in sports crowds as in any other crowd.

There's nothing wrong with putting the other team and supporters down, that's all part of the game, but a lot of people forget that it's a GAME and make it something far nastier instead.

Griff · 05-17-2002, 06:46 AM

I never thought of it as a gun issue... interesting idea. I always assume that folks who go in for this kind of thing don't feel free. They think (using the term loosely) they are or are trapped in the unproductive subset of society, held bound by their inability to visualize a better life because of their education and welfare systems, the excessive drugs and booze are just pain killers. I read an article in which the author compared the freedom he found in societies with their driving habits, his thesis being that people who have no control over anything else in their lives want to rule on the road, ignoring courtesy and law. Its a social barometer we all can watch. Leaves me thinking of Trainspotting...

(still I can't wait for the WC to start)

bobspoon · 05-17-2002, 07:02 AM

You have to remember that these hooligans don't only come from disadvantaged backgrounds, and many of them are living happily enough in well-paid jobs. They can afford a £40 team shirt and tickets for the games, the cost of travel all over the country and abroad (you take the fights with you) and so on. That doesn't come cheap.

So it's not people on the scrap-heap of society, it's people who like a fight and want to make trouble. It's too simplistic to say that they're "oppressed" by anything at all, other than their own tiny minds.

It doesn't matter if you've got gun control or not. Knowing the difference between right or wrong comes irrespective of guns, along with respect of others. There's just a culture of intense rivalry between footy teams, which some take far too far.

elSicomoro · 05-17-2002, 10:12 AM

It would seem that soccer is just a fanatical game as a whole.

One of the best sports experiences I've ever had was going to a DC United game 2 summers ago. It had rained heavily just before the start of the game...and everyone was drenched. But the game was exciting, and Rho and I had a lot of fun. Some of the fans became unruly...I probably saw 2 or 3 fights almost commence. And the 2 big fan clubs, Screaming Eagles and Barra Brava, are rabid. Picture about 2000 fans jumping up and down during the entire game, screaming and yelling, making the section of seats bob up and down all night.

The funny part of that game was that there were several groups there that night, as in kids' soccer teams and their families. I know sports teams in general are trying to be more family-friendly, but young soccer fans may want to try something less violent, like indoor soccer.

World Cup starts 2 weeks from today. I remember reading on BBC about how some businesses in the UK are worried about people calling off on June 2 and 7 (England's match days), because the games start at 10:30am and 12:30pm (respectively) London time. I wonder if a) the fans will be rowdy in their respective home countries during the games, and b) if the Japanese and Koreans are as rabid as Europeans and Latin Americans when it comes to soccer.

Undertoad · 05-17-2002, 10:46 AM

Oh yes, there's another aspect here that Americans aren't as aware of. At least as it was a few decades ago, the stadiums are just as likely to have seats as not. I lived there as a lad (Sheffield United, 1977-78), and only the sides of the stadium had seats. The ends were standing only, and fans were tightly packed into a small area. Bad behavior was routine. This is Sociology 101 stuff, how to turn an unruly crowd into a mob: pack 'em in. As a kid, I didn't even realize how dangerous it really was.

After the Hillsborough incident (where many were killed due to that kind of crowding), I understand that there was an initiative to make bigger stadiums seats-only... no idea of how well that idea went over. Brits, help me out here?

I was also in attendance at one of the US's worst recent examples of fan behavior. It was 1999, San Francisco at Philadelphia, Monday Night Football. It was a night that helped to make Philly's reputation for ugly fan behavior. Fights broke out all over the stadium, fans ran out onto the field. The worst thing was when some dope fired a flare gun from one side of the stadium to the other.

After that night, the team instituted a practice of holding a courtroom in the stadium on game day, so that anyone caught would be immediately taken before a judge.

There were obvious reasons for the Monday night debacle. Yes, a Monday night meant that the usual bunch of south Philly people had all day to drink. The biggest problem was that the Eagles were just terrible that year. Amazingly, all of the fights ended in the fourth quarter, when the team put in the third-string quarterback, who actually woke up the offense. People stopped fighting and started watching the game!

But between Sheffield circa '77 and Philly circa '99, there's no question where I was safer: Philly. Everyone in fights there wanted to be in fights. If you didn't want to be in a fight, nobody would give you a second look. We were right next to a section where fights were breaking out. Anyone who wanted out could get out easily, and fights never spread to unwilling spectators.

elSicomoro · 05-17-2002, 04:39 PM

What a coincidence

sypher · 05-20-2002, 04:50 PM

I have seen this kind of stuff in the UK where i live.
 
Kids go with dad to the game, and if the parent isnt too in control of his emotions then the kids with him will mimic him, and then usually form unrelated gangs back at school with the kid as top dog (drastic conclusion albeit)

 

Football violence/aggression is a serious thing, it doesnt always only affect the people involved and there is no real way to stop it bar killing the game, but i am fairly certain i wouldnt want my kid exhibiting this kind of behaviour, whether he knows what he is doing or not. (he looks like he does)

 

This is a really good image, and really got me thinking about the kind of country/world we live in.

sleemanj · 05-20-2002, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad

There were obvious reasons for the Monday night debacle. Yes, a Monday night meant that the usual bunch of south Philly people had all day to drink.

Do they not work on a Monday in South Philly ?

elSicomoro · 05-20-2002, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sleemanj
Do they not work on a Monday in South Philly ?

Probably not when the Eagles play on Monday night.

Undertoad · 05-20-2002, 06:55 PM

A Monday Night Football Monday? Well the idea would be to make it to the Vet by about 6, so you could get a good three hours of drinking in. (Game starts at 9pm, here in the east.) It's a better situation than the 1pm games, where only a handful will start drinking at 10am.

05-16-2002, 06:42 AM	#1
bobspoon Fellow-Commoner Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 10	5/16/2002 [Extra] - Innocence Lost Young Feyenoord Fan Thought this picture might make an interesting parallel to some we've seen recently. I'm always saddened by pictures of very young children showing that they're against something, whether it's by waving a banner in a march against GM foods, strapping fake explosives around their waists or this. A child's mind is a beautiful thing, wonderfully open and curious, and I think of it as a form of abuse when a parent lets their own flesh and blood get corrupted like this. It's not as it should be. For those not into football (or soccer, if you wish), this chap is wearing the colours of Feyenoord Rotterdam, who won the UEFA Cup this month, and it looks like the photo was taken at a match.

05-16-2002, 07:42 PM	#4
verbatim Vice-President of Resentment Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Pennsultucky Posts: 199	The kid's got an earring too. Wouldnt be suprised if this kid actually knew what that meant. bobspoon, you are absolutely right. It should be a crime to warp a little kid's mind like this. Its terrible, its a crime against humanity. I guess you could liken these football demonstrations to the Isreal/Palestinian conflict, minus the whole land thing and suicide bombings and stuff like that. Its almost learned behavior. __________________ <-- I'm with stupid

05-17-2002, 06:46 AM	#7
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	I never thought of it as a gun issue... interesting idea. I always assume that folks who go in for this kind of thing don't feel free. They think (using the term loosely) they are or are trapped in the unproductive subset of society, held bound by their inability to visualize a better life because of their education and welfare systems, the excessive drugs and booze are just pain killers. I read an article in which the author compared the freedom he found in societies with their driving habits, his thesis being that people who have no control over anything else in their lives want to rule on the road, ignoring courtesy and law. Its a social barometer we all can watch. Leaves me thinking of Trainspotting... (still I can't wait for the WC to start) __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

05-20-2002, 04:50 PM	#12
sypher Sibling of the Commonweal Join Date: May 2002 Location: England Posts: 16	Blame the parent(s) I have seen this kind of stuff in the UK where i live. <BR><BR> Kids go with dad to the game, and if the parent isnt too in control of his emotions then the kids with him will mimic him, and then usually form unrelated gangs back at school with the kid as top dog (drastic conclusion albeit) <BR><BR> Football violence/aggression is a serious thing, it doesnt always only affect the people involved and there is no real way to stop it bar killing the game, but i am fairly certain i wouldnt want my kid exhibiting this kind of behaviour, whether he knows what he is doing or not. (he looks like he does) <BR><BR> This is a really good image, and really got me thinking about the kind of country/world we live in. __________________ Imagination is the one weapon in the war against reality. -- Jules de Gaultier

05-16-2002, 11:53 AM	#2
jtm Dog O'Nine Tails Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 20	The only time I get into sports is during the Olympics, so I'm not exposed to the rabid fans, but why are "Football" (i.e. soccer) fans so fanatical? Soccer related riots in England and other parts of Europe seem par for the course. Are there more alcohol in those games? Less police presence? Why are American football (as in NFL, etc.) and baseball games as prone to violence and deepseated hatred of opposing teams?

05-16-2002, 09:28 PM	#5
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	jtm, I read a book about it by a "participatory journalist" -- this guy actually lived with them for a while. It's a violence subculture that's just as addictive to the participants as drugs. And yes, it's accompanied by massive drinking. My guess, too, is that it's something more prone to happen in a gun-controlled society. Why: because it's violent, but not quite as likely to be deadly and more likely to last a bit longer. There's no fun in a gun shot, at least not the sort of adrenaline-building fun these people are going for. It's all over too fast with guns.

05-17-2002, 03:36 AM	#6
bobspoon Fellow-Commoner Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 10	Perhaps it also has something to do with soccer being such a global sport, and the dislike you get between fans of opposing teams from countries with historical difficulties. It doesn't surprise me much when the crowds in an England-Argentina match seethe with tension, given that they were at war only two decades ago. The media in general like to stoke up racial tensions to get their own point across, and that often breeds discontent and hatred of certain groups of people, which you'll see reflected in sports crowds as in any other crowd. There's nothing wrong with putting the other team and supporters down, that's all part of the game, but a lot of people forget that it's a GAME and make it something far nastier instead.

05-17-2002, 07:02 AM	#8
bobspoon Fellow-Commoner Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 10	You have to remember that these hooligans don't only come from disadvantaged backgrounds, and many of them are living happily enough in well-paid jobs. They can afford a £40 team shirt and tickets for the games, the cost of travel all over the country and abroad (you take the fights with you) and so on. That doesn't come cheap. So it's not people on the scrap-heap of society, it's people who like a fight and want to make trouble. It's too simplistic to say that they're "oppressed" by anything at all, other than their own tiny minds. It doesn't matter if you've got gun control or not. Knowing the difference between right or wrong comes irrespective of guns, along with respect of others. There's just a culture of intense rivalry between footy teams, which some take far too far.

05-17-2002, 10:12 AM	#9
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	It would seem that soccer is just a fanatical game as a whole. One of the best sports experiences I've ever had was going to a DC United game 2 summers ago. It had rained heavily just before the start of the game...and everyone was drenched. But the game was exciting, and Rho and I had a lot of fun. Some of the fans became unruly...I probably saw 2 or 3 fights almost commence. And the 2 big fan clubs, Screaming Eagles and Barra Brava, are rabid. Picture about 2000 fans jumping up and down during the entire game, screaming and yelling, making the section of seats bob up and down all night. The funny part of that game was that there were several groups there that night, as in kids' soccer teams and their families. I know sports teams in general are trying to be more family-friendly, but young soccer fans may want to try something less violent, like indoor soccer. World Cup starts 2 weeks from today. I remember reading on BBC about how some businesses in the UK are worried about people calling off on June 2 and 7 (England's match days), because the games start at 10:30am and 12:30pm (respectively) London time. I wonder if a) the fans will be rowdy in their respective home countries during the games, and b) if the Japanese and Koreans are as rabid as Europeans and Latin Americans when it comes to soccer.

05-17-2002, 10:46 AM	#10
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Oh yes, there's another aspect here that Americans aren't as aware of. At least as it was a few decades ago, the stadiums are just as likely to have seats as not. I lived there as a lad (Sheffield United, 1977-78), and only the sides of the stadium had seats. The ends were standing only, and fans were tightly packed into a small area. Bad behavior was routine. This is Sociology 101 stuff, how to turn an unruly crowd into a mob: pack 'em in. As a kid, I didn't even realize how dangerous it really was. After the Hillsborough incident (where many were killed due to that kind of crowding), I understand that there was an initiative to make bigger stadiums seats-only... no idea of how well that idea went over. Brits, help me out here? I was also in attendance at one of the US's worst recent examples of fan behavior. It was 1999, San Francisco at Philadelphia, Monday Night Football. It was a night that helped to make Philly's reputation for ugly fan behavior. Fights broke out all over the stadium, fans ran out onto the field. The worst thing was when some dope fired a flare gun from one side of the stadium to the other. After that night, the team instituted a practice of holding a courtroom in the stadium on game day, so that anyone caught would be immediately taken before a judge. There were obvious reasons for the Monday night debacle. Yes, a Monday night meant that the usual bunch of south Philly people had all day to drink. The biggest problem was that the Eagles were just terrible that year. Amazingly, all of the fights ended in the fourth quarter, when the team put in the third-string quarterback, who actually woke up the offense. People stopped fighting and started watching the game! But between Sheffield circa '77 and Philly circa '99, there's no question where I was safer: Philly. Everyone in fights there wanted to be in fights. If you didn't want to be in a fight, nobody would give you a second look. We were right next to a section where fights were breaking out. Anyone who wanted out could get out easily, and fights never spread to unwilling spectators.

05-17-2002, 04:39 PM	#11
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	What a coincidence

05-20-2002, 06:55 PM	#15
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	A Monday Night Football Monday? Well the idea would be to make it to the Vet by about 6, so you could get a good three hours of drinking in. (Game starts at 9pm, here in the east.) It's a better situation than the 1pm games, where only a handful will start drinking at 10am.

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