10/18/2005: Mine fishing with a rat

Undertoad · 10-18-2005, 04:38 PM

Elspode suggests this item, the full caption:

A mine detecting Gambian giant pouch rat works an area in a mine field near Vilancoulos in southern Mozambique, 450 km north east of the capital Maputo, in this November 2004 file photo. The rats are trained from an early age to associate the scent of explosives with a food reward and indicate the suspected presence of explosives by grooming and scratching the earth. Clearing the many minefields, which are a result of the country's twenty year civil war, is funded by international and Mozambican Non Government Organisations and the government.

What is left unsaid is how often the scratching rat sets off the mine. Sad. Clearly they have developed this system to let the distant (and protective-suited) humans to stand a few yards away while the rat does his business.

BigV · 10-18-2005, 05:25 PM

I feel sorry for the rats that get blown up too. But I'd rather see 1000 rats blown up than one kid or one farmer.

I read a little. They're not endangered, in some areas they're invasive pests (Key West). From the looks of the picture, they're on a short lead on a fixed line. I wonder if they use the line to verify a strip of ground, then they move the rig, repeating the process.

I don't think this is any more or less humane than harvesting chickens for food. Plus, I imagine the loss to mines is an undesirable outcome for the rat handlers as well, considering the training put into them.

Trilby · 10-18-2005, 06:44 PM

I thought it would be a cold day in hell when I felt sorry for a rat, but...I do feel sorry for them. What a nasty surprise.

Carbonated_Brains · 10-18-2005, 06:46 PM

I wouldn't worry about it.

Most, if not all mines are designed with a force trigger of at least a few pounds to guard AGAINST rats and critters setting them off.

Your minefield in the jungle isn't much good if, after a week, you have no mines and 400 blown up squirrels.

Griff · 10-18-2005, 06:47 PM

Very messy business but yah, I don't want some kid to find it.

richlevy · 10-18-2005, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

The rats are trained from an early age to associate the scent of explosives with a food reward.

Wow, and I thought Atkins was tough.

zippyt · 10-18-2005, 11:38 PM

Top of the food chain Baby !!!

zippyt · 10-18-2005, 11:47 PM

All kidding aside this is a good and porpusfull use for vermin , cheap mine detecters , if they DO get blown up it serves a two fold purpose of getting rid of a dangerous mine and a dangerous critter , and there are PLENTY more where they came from !!!

xoxoxoBruce · 10-19-2005, 12:15 AM

I wonder if they all get blown up eventually?
I don't care....but I wonder.
Protective clothing or not, those guys look awful close. It must be set up for the picture. They would be crazy to work that close.

zippyt · 10-19-2005, 12:37 AM

I used to have a budy in the EOD ( explosive ordinance Desposal ) unit , he said they were more worried about the small stuff ( gernades , bounceing bettys mines , etc,,,) becouse they would maim you , the BIG stuff ( 500 lb'ers and the sort ) well , if'n they went BOOM you were just a "lingering PINK mist "

Lizsun · 10-19-2005, 06:42 AM

One more way that we get ourselves into a bind by shrot-term thinking.
Gosh if just one guy in charge had thought about what if we win and my grandkid moves there . . . his kids might walk across that field one day.

ME-Liz
http://lettingmebe.blogspot.com

smithgr · 10-19-2005, 07:18 AM

Evidently the photographer isn't concerned that the rat will set off the mine. As others have mentioned, landmines usually take several pounds of pressure to trigger them. I would be surprized if many rats were killed at all. They probably use them because they are intelligent but smaller than dogs,which ARE big enough to set off mines.

I recall reading a journalist's account (sorry, can't attribute) of seeing a Vietnamese child throwing a stick for his dog in a field and then walking to the dog and repeating the process. The journalist thought it was just a kid playing with his dog until he realized that the kid was using the dog to clear a safe path through a mine field. Wow...talk about an alternate reality.

capnhowdy · 10-19-2005, 07:49 AM

I saw something on Animal Planet (I think) a few nights ago on this same topic. The handlers are assigned a rat and raise it, feed it cherish it, etc. to form a lifelong bond. Sort of like a miniatureized version of the Mahout. I don't recall the statistics on how many people are killed each year by mines, but I do know that it was shocking.
They work the rats on long lines and leashes in a grid type pattern.
Another reason to be glad to live in America.

magilla · 10-19-2005, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

What is left unsaid is how often the scratching rat sets off the mine. Sad. Clearly they have developed this system to let the distant (and protective-suited) humans to stand a few yards away while the rat does his business.

Quite a few years ago I helped a sightless friend of mine prepare a term paper on the rights of humans to use animals in various circumstances. She had many, many examples, the most obvious one being her guide dog. She also had reports of Russians in World War II training dogs to associate the underside of German tanks with food. They would have explosives strapped to their backs, and when released on the battlefield they would run under the tanks and BOOM. Finally, she had documents from Vietnam describing the use of dogs to detect boobytraps. The score on that one was: Traps detected: thousands. Dogs injured/killed: None.

It is certainly not in the interests of the trainers to treat the rats as expendable. They represent a considerable expense in terms of time and effort. I bet the rats don't suffer a high mortality rate.

Have a look at

http://www.aeaf.org/papers/1997-11-ian-feinhandler.htm

Chris

wolf · 10-19-2005, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by capnhowdy

Another reason to be glad to live in America.

We got all the ones off the beaches in Hawaii, right?

10-18-2005, 04:38 PM	#1
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	10/18/2005: Mine fishing with a rat Elspode suggests this item, the full caption: A mine detecting Gambian giant pouch rat works an area in a mine field near Vilancoulos in southern Mozambique, 450 km north east of the capital Maputo, in this November 2004 file photo. The rats are trained from an early age to associate the scent of explosives with a food reward and indicate the suspected presence of explosives by grooming and scratching the earth. Clearing the many minefields, which are a result of the country's twenty year civil war, is funded by international and Mozambican Non Government Organisations and the government. What is left unsaid is how often the scratching rat sets off the mine. Sad. Clearly they have developed this system to let the distant (and protective-suited) humans to stand a few yards away while the rat does his business.

10-18-2005, 05:25 PM	#2
BigV Goon Squad Leader Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,063	I feel sorry for the rats that get blown up too. But I'd rather see 1000 rats blown up than one kid or one farmer. I read a little. They're not endangered, in some areas they're invasive pests (Key West). From the looks of the picture, they're on a short lead on a fixed line. I wonder if they use the line to verify a strip of ground, then they move the rig, repeating the process. I don't think this is any more or less humane than harvesting chickens for food. Plus, I imagine the loss to mines is an undesirable outcome for the rat handlers as well, considering the training put into them. __________________ Be Just and Fear Not.

10-18-2005, 06:44 PM	#3
Trilby Slattern of the Swail Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 15,654	I thought it would be a cold day in hell when I felt sorry for a rat, but...I do feel sorry for them. What a nasty surprise. __________________ In Barrie's play and novel, the roles of fairies are brief: they are allies to the Lost Boys, the source of fairy dust and ...They are portrayed as dangerous, whimsical and extremely clever but quite hedonistic. "Shall I give you a kiss?" Peter asked and, jerking an acorn button off his coat, solemnly presented it to her. —James Barrie Wimminfolk they be tricksy. - ZenGum

10-18-2005, 06:47 PM	#5
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	Very messy business but yah, I don't want some kid to find it. __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

10-18-2005, 11:38 PM	#7
zippyt LONG LIVE KING ZIPPY! per Feetz Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Arkansas Posts: 7,661	Top of the food chain Baby !!! __________________ "Success is getting what you want. Happiness is wanting what you get. " Brother Dave Gardner

10-18-2005, 06:46 PM	#4
Carbonated_Brains Does it show up here when I type? Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Between the smoky layers of a prosciutto sandwich! Posts: 355	I wouldn't worry about it. Most, if not all mines are designed with a force trigger of at least a few pounds to guard AGAINST rats and critters setting them off. Your minefield in the jungle isn't much good if, after a week, you have no mines and 400 blown up squirrels.

10-18-2005, 11:47 PM	#8
zippyt LONG LIVE KING ZIPPY! per Feetz Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Arkansas Posts: 7,661	All kidding aside this is a good and porpusfull use for vermin , cheap mine detecters , if they DO get blown up it serves a two fold purpose of getting rid of a dangerous mine and a dangerous critter , and there are PLENTY more where they came from !!! __________________ "Success is getting what you want. Happiness is wanting what you get. " Brother Dave Gardner

10-19-2005, 12:15 AM	#9
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	I wonder if they all get blown up eventually? I don't care....but I wonder. Protective clothing or not, those guys look awful close. It must be set up for the picture. They would be crazy to work that close. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

10-19-2005, 12:37 AM	#10
zippyt LONG LIVE KING ZIPPY! per Feetz Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Arkansas Posts: 7,661	I used to have a budy in the EOD ( explosive ordinance Desposal ) unit , he said they were more worried about the small stuff ( gernades , bounceing bettys mines , etc,,,) becouse they would maim you , the BIG stuff ( 500 lb'ers and the sort ) well , if'n they went BOOM you were just a "lingering PINK mist " __________________ "Success is getting what you want. Happiness is wanting what you get. " Brother Dave Gardner

10-19-2005, 06:42 AM	#11
Lizsun Complex Simpleton Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 18	One more way that we get ourselves into a bind by shrot-term thinking. Gosh if just one guy in charge had thought about what if we win and my grandkid moves there . . . his kids might walk across that field one day. ME-Liz http://lettingmebe.blogspot.com

10-19-2005, 07:18 AM	#12
smithgr Aggregate Aggravator Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Kettering OH, USA Posts: 17	Evidently the photographer isn't concerned that the rat will set off the mine. As others have mentioned, landmines usually take several pounds of pressure to trigger them. I would be surprized if many rats were killed at all. They probably use them because they are intelligent but smaller than dogs,which ARE big enough to set off mines. I recall reading a journalist's account (sorry, can't attribute) of seeing a Vietnamese child throwing a stick for his dog in a field and then walking to the dog and repeating the process. The journalist thought it was just a kid playing with his dog until he realized that the kid was using the dog to clear a safe path through a mine field. Wow...talk about an alternate reality.

10-19-2005, 07:49 AM	#13
capnhowdy Blatantly Homosapien Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 6,200	I saw something on Animal Planet (I think) a few nights ago on this same topic. The handlers are assigned a rat and raise it, feed it cherish it, etc. to form a lifelong bond. Sort of like a miniatureized version of the Mahout. I don't recall the statistics on how many people are killed each year by mines, but I do know that it was shocking. They work the rats on long lines and leashes in a grid type pattern. Another reason to be glad to live in America. __________________ Please type slowly. I can't read very fast............... and no holy water, please.

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