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06-07-2010, 11:16 PM | #1 | ||
Radical Centrist
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
Posts: 31,423
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ah, but I'm not allowed to use that argument, because it will make you feel guilty. Quote:
They gave back the entire Sinai peninsula. (Twice!) They gave back the Golan Heights. They left Lebanon. Now they've left Gaza. They took those lands after being attacked from those lands. They gave it back -- often on the basis of world opinion. That really fucks your narrative in multiple ways. Can you explain, or does your organization just need to print fresh pamphlets? |
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06-07-2010, 11:44 PM | #2 | |||
Chews Food Coming In, And Going Out
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 339
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However, take note that it was not only the Arabs, or the British, that caused the recommendation to fall into rejection, rather, the Zionist Jews, too. Quote:
Not only that, but the partition would've seen the relocation of some 200,000+ Arabs... and less than 2,000 Jews. Yet, they wanted more? Seems fair. The reason the Woodhead Commission seemingly absolved Britain of any responsibility involved with Palestine, was due to the growing threat of Germany, and global conflict... The two peoples couldn't come to an agreement, the Jews wanted more, and the Arabs feared the Jews invading their territory, that was no fault of ours. It's been a constant topic, since the founding of Israel, that the Jewish people are unhappy with the amount of land given to them. They've always tried to take more, whenever they have been able... Many hundreds of thousands of Palestinian civilians being forced from their land, turned into refugees due to Israeli expansion. They give back land, when under pressure from the outside... Yes? Does that make them some kind of magnanimous people? They only give back what they took, when (somewhat) forced to do so, and that makes them... good people? No, sir, it does not. It's a common tactic of those who want to save face, within the world's watchful eye. They give back a little, and seem like glorious people... and we yet again ignore the atrocities committed. Their land has successively grown, since the original partition (and even more, since the original recommendation for partition.) They lose pieces, here and there, through, as you say, international pressure... but their current geographical size far exceeds what was originally intended for them. Care to explain? (I apologise, but, I used to have several links, detailing this expansion, but I can't seem to locate them. I'm sure a man of your resources, and knowledge, must have some vague idea as to what I am referring to, though?) Quote:
Age is not a factor, when it comes to knowledge, interpretation of knowledge, or opinion. As for your comment, suggesting I am bigoted in my views of Jewish people... you're quite wrong. I am disgruntled by the general defiance that Israel has shown to general war practice. I am disgusted by the holocaust guilt that causes us to turn a blind-eye to the atrocities committed. I am against the nation's comments, the nation's war, and the way the nation has treated the people of Palestine... I am not against the individual. It is an opinion, both based on fact, and interpretation of fact. Everybody is welcome to one, and no one has the right to state that somebody is bigoted, for their opinion, without actual evidence of bigotry. You're welcome to your opinion that I am a bigot, but you're simply making a fool of yourself, through your choice of words. Disgruntled, yes. Bigot, no. Perhaps you should check the actual definition of "bigotry," before you attempt to call somebody, especially me, a "bigot." Thank you.
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"O' Captain! My Captain! Our fearful trip is done;" "The ship has weather’d every rack, the prize we sought is won;" - Walt Whitman / Leaves Of Grass. |
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06-08-2010, 01:12 AM | #3 | ||
Radical Centrist
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
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But your position is that the amount of land should have been zero, as there should never have been a partition, right? Quote:
Why is Israel larger today than when it was partitioned? Because various neighbors keep invading it, and Israel keeps occupying the area it finds is strategically necessary for defense. You don't believe this why? You would do the same. It's sensible. Why is Israel far larger today than when it was partitioned? Because half of that is the southern desert area which nobody gives a shit about. But it sure does make it interesting on those web sites, when the area of Israel grows and grows! I said that Israel has given up more land than the size of Israel. You have characterized this as "pieces here and there." Really? The amount of land Israel has won at wartime and given back is approximately 26000 sq. miles. Israel is approximately 8000 sq. miles. |
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06-08-2010, 11:06 AM | #4 | |
Chews Food Coming In, And Going Out
Join Date: Sep 2009
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Any good strategist would tell you, to use whatever you can, to your advantage, to meet your ideal solution. Now, the holocaust was a terrible thing, but, through that, they were able to broker a better deal, for more land, when the partition solution was re-envisioned. I suppose, in essence, this was the first time holocaust guilt impacted how the world dealt with the Jews, with the founding of a larger Israel than was originally recommended... Funny, how we argued less over the size, and they, too, argued less over the size, during/after the holocaust, eh? Likewise, any good strategist would tell you to jump at opportunity - Grabbing Arab land in the name of "strategic importance to defence." It's important that I take the land of my neighbours, to defend myself against burglary, but to do so would nor just be morally wrong, due to me putting people out on the streets, but it'd also be illegal... on a larger scale, it'd be considered a war crime, displacing so many civilians, from land that was not my own, for a flimsy, certainly not water-tight reason, that only serves to my own benefit. The amount of land GIVEN should've been zero. We should've let the Arabs and the Jews fight over the land, if that's where they wished to have the land. If they could muster up enough military might to topple the Arabs, even in a small area... good for them. At least it would've been earned, at least it would've been won, in accordance to war protocol. The fact that they feel so entitled to the land, that it's their God-given right to be there, is what annoys me. It is Arab land, surrounded by Arab land. It was not won, it was (for all intents and purposes) stolen. That is not how things should be, and it further weakens the so-called moral high-ground that the people of Israel try to claim, during their occupation of the Arab land, during their war with the rightful owners. It's getting close to a million Arabs having been displaced, due to the Israeli-Arab conflict. Now, this is not through choice of their own, rather, through Israeli expansion, and bombardment... stealing what they feel is "necessary defensive land," not giving a damn what happens to the civilians that inhabit it - What's more, they then intercept every vessel sent to provide aid to these hundreds of thousands of refugees. They're an uncaring people, fighting an unjust war, playing on the hope that we'll not touch them, and continue to turn a blind eye to their illegal actions, through our continued (false) guilt over what happened during WWII. It's shameful.
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"O' Captain! My Captain! Our fearful trip is done;" "The ship has weather’d every rack, the prize we sought is won;" - Walt Whitman / Leaves Of Grass. |
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06-08-2010, 01:21 PM | #5 | |||||
Radical Centrist
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
Posts: 31,423
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And war protocol, you're freely bullshitting again. When Hamas launches rockets, admit it, you come in your shorts. There's nothing protocol about any of Israel's adversaries' war actions. You haven't mentioned their clear and obvious human rights violations any by the way neither does the guilt-ridden European press or UN members. You know, Hamas kills more Palestinians with Hamas rockets than they do Israelis. They aren't exactly rocket scientists, and not only do some of the bombs land in Gaza, they routinely suffer "work accidents" where explosives detonate while they're working on them. Relevant to you? Or can Hamas do whatever it likes as long as its charter is Judenrein? Quote:
The Ottomans, who were Turks and not Arabs, captured it in 1512 and held it for 4 centuries. They started the Jewish trend to emigrate there, by inviting them to do so during the Spanish Inquisition. (The Jews who did were not given any flack, due to worldwide guilt over the Inquisition.) The land was then captured in WW1, assigned to the Brits by the mandate of the League of Nations in 1917 with the express direction that a Jewish state be established there. The mandate in fact read Quote:
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Kicked out of the Arab countries, these Jews emigrated to Israel during the 50s and 60s. They and their descendants represent 41% of the population of Israel. That's about 3 million people. Ironically, these Jews would not be allowed return to their "home countries"; were you aware? And they didn't come from Germany and Poland, where you and Helen Thomas say they should "return" to. Quote:
The vessels are not there to provide aid. They are there to challenge an embargo that prevents Hamas from easily rearming itself and killing more Palestinians. Every aid vessel is told to land in Israel where the boats are unloaded and the aid materials sent to Gaza after being searched for contraband. Do you know what is happening with the aid sent on the controversial flotilla of two weeks ago? It's sitting in a warehouse in Israel, because Hamas refuses to allow it to be delivered to Gaza. That tells you all you need to know: to Hamas, the PR is more important than the AID. |
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