Horrifying gang rape & assault on mother & son - Page 13

monster · 09-07-2007, 04:17 PM

Juvenile does not imply no thought/planning, it implies juvenile thought/planning.

xoxoxoBruce · 09-07-2007, 04:23 PM

Pretty tough to define the difference, isn't it? Wouldn't a smart kid plan better than a stupid adult?

monster · 09-07-2007, 04:30 PM

hard to define the difference between no thought and juvenile thought?

monster · 09-07-2007, 04:31 PM

Yes, I would think a smart kid could plan better than a stupid adult.

xoxoxoBruce · 09-07-2007, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monster

hard to define the difference between no thought and juvenile thought?

Sorry, I wasn't clear. Between juvenile thought/plans and adult thought/plans? I asked because you didn't say no plans vs plans, but no plans vs juvenile plans.

DanaC · 09-07-2007, 05:37 PM

I think that's because there was a suggestion that the fact they engaged in planning means they aren't acting as juveniles.

monster · 09-07-2007, 07:37 PM

exactly. The poster inferred that if there were plans/thought, then the perps must be acting as adults. But kids do plan and think about things, and they sometimes are extremely illogical and do not have the ability to consider all the possible consequences of their actions, and this is most likely a result of their brains not yet being fully matured.

For example, you might get a toddler wedging the freezer door open because the ice cream was lonely. You treat the "crime" of ruined food differently than you would if it were an older child, and with the older child there might well be a differnce in the consequences depending on whether they were being malicious, careless or stoned. if it were an adult, their reasoning would probably have little impact on the consequences.

That doesn't mean it's easy to differentiate at what level these kids were processing their thoughts, and that's why there is an age limit to differentiate between juveniles and adults. There never will be an easy answer.

9th Engineer · 09-07-2007, 09:40 PM

What we need is a new type of prison system. No longer is it acceptable to simply house criminals in what are, in effect, training centers for future crimes. It is too expensive to keep building new prisons indefinitely, at least with the way we do things now. New technology will slowly start to improve this though, at least as quickly as we can afford to upgrade the system.

The most immediate thing I can think of is to remove common areas from all prisons constructed from now on. Each inmate would spend their days in a small number of interconnected rooms, perhaps with a combined area of twice to three times a typical cell now. This would allow more prisoners to be stored in a small space, and would also reduce problems during transportation. Food could be transported via vacuum tube, as well as any other items needed. Shower and sink would be contained in the same area, leading to fewer problems during bathing periods. Soap, shampoo, and toothpaste would be depenced from a general tubing system which would serve entire units. Entertainment could be supplied in the form of an hour or so of TV a day (more would waste electricity) and a certain number of books per month requested in advance.

This system, in my most sincerest opinion, would not only be far more effective for general inmates but would also allow more effective containment of high risk or special needs inmates. NO2 or other gases could be pumped into each cell without guards being put at risk due to the confined area, and the prisoner would not need to be subdued physically.

This is not nearly the entire system, but if I make this post longer no one will read it.

9th Engineer · 09-07-2007, 09:46 PM

Within my lifetime I hope to be part of making this a reality. Research now, advocating as a lawyer later

xoxoxoBruce · 09-07-2007, 09:48 PM

Well, I suppose considering the outcome, the only thing we can be sure of is any thinking was flawed.

DanaC · 09-08-2007, 06:33 AM

Quote:

NO2 or other gases could be pumped into each cell without guards being put at risk due to the confined area, and the prisoner would not need to be subdued physically.

I can see how that might potentially be kinder than physical force...but it also raises worrying questions about the prinoer's human rights.

Crimson Ghost · 09-10-2007, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

NO2 or other gases could be pumped into each cell without guards being put at risk due to the confined area, and the prisoner would not need to be subdued physically.

We Germans did that during the war...

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC

I can see how that might potentially be kinder than physical force...but it also raises worrying questions about the prinoer's human rights.

I still say that some prisoners should have their "human rights" revoked.

Radar · 09-10-2007, 12:56 AM

Rights don't come from other people. We're BORN with them. They are immutable and unalienable. They can't be "revoked" anymore than you can revoke someone's gravity.

DanaC · 09-10-2007, 03:37 AM

Quote:

I still say that some prisoners should have their "human rights" revoked.

It's been said you can judge a civilisation on how well it treats its prisoners. That they have committed apalling crimes does not stop them being human.

xoxoxoBruce · 09-10-2007, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar

Rights don't come from other people. We're BORN with them. They are immutable and unalienable. They can't be "revoked" anymore than you can revoke someone's gravity.

But they sure can be trod upon.

09-07-2007, 04:17 PM	#181
monster I hear them call the tide Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Perpetual Chaos Posts: 30,852	Juvenile does not imply no thought/planning, it implies juvenile thought/planning. __________________ The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity Amelia Earhart

09-07-2007, 04:23 PM	#182
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Pretty tough to define the difference, isn't it? Wouldn't a smart kid plan better than a stupid adult? __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

09-07-2007, 04:30 PM	#183
monster I hear them call the tide Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Perpetual Chaos Posts: 30,852	hard to define the difference between no thought and juvenile thought? __________________ The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity Amelia Earhart

09-07-2007, 04:31 PM	#184
monster I hear them call the tide Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Perpetual Chaos Posts: 30,852	Yes, I would think a smart kid could plan better than a stupid adult. __________________ The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity Amelia Earhart

09-07-2007, 07:37 PM	#187
monster I hear them call the tide Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Perpetual Chaos Posts: 30,852	exactly. The poster inferred that if there were plans/thought, then the perps must be acting as adults. But kids do plan and think about things, and they sometimes are extremely illogical and do not have the ability to consider all the possible consequences of their actions, and this is most likely a result of their brains not yet being fully matured. For example, you might get a toddler wedging the freezer door open because the ice cream was lonely. You treat the "crime" of ruined food differently than you would if it were an older child, and with the older child there might well be a differnce in the consequences depending on whether they were being malicious, careless or stoned. if it were an adult, their reasoning would probably have little impact on the consequences. That doesn't mean it's easy to differentiate at what level these kids were processing their thoughts, and that's why there is an age limit to differentiate between juveniles and adults. There never will be an easy answer. __________________ The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity Amelia Earhart

09-07-2007, 05:37 PM	#186
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	I think that's because there was a suggestion that the fact they engaged in planning means they aren't acting as juveniles.

09-07-2007, 09:40 PM	#188
9th Engineer Bioengineer and aspiring lawer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 872	What we need is a new type of prison system. No longer is it acceptable to simply house criminals in what are, in effect, training centers for future crimes. It is too expensive to keep building new prisons indefinitely, at least with the way we do things now. New technology will slowly start to improve this though, at least as quickly as we can afford to upgrade the system. The most immediate thing I can think of is to remove common areas from all prisons constructed from now on. Each inmate would spend their days in a small number of interconnected rooms, perhaps with a combined area of twice to three times a typical cell now. This would allow more prisoners to be stored in a small space, and would also reduce problems during transportation. Food could be transported via vacuum tube, as well as any other items needed. Shower and sink would be contained in the same area, leading to fewer problems during bathing periods. Soap, shampoo, and toothpaste would be depenced from a general tubing system which would serve entire units. Entertainment could be supplied in the form of an hour or so of TV a day (more would waste electricity) and a certain number of books per month requested in advance. This system, in my most sincerest opinion, would not only be far more effective for general inmates but would also allow more effective containment of high risk or special needs inmates. NO2 or other gases could be pumped into each cell without guards being put at risk due to the confined area, and the prisoner would not need to be subdued physically. This is not nearly the entire system, but if I make this post longer no one will read it. __________________ The most valuable renewable resource is stupidity.

09-07-2007, 09:46 PM	#189
9th Engineer Bioengineer and aspiring lawer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 872	Within my lifetime I hope to be part of making this a reality. Research now, advocating as a lawyer later __________________ The most valuable renewable resource is stupidity.

09-07-2007, 09:48 PM	#190
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Well, I suppose considering the outcome, the only thing we can be sure of is any thinking was flawed. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

09-10-2007, 12:56 AM	#193
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	Rights don't come from other people. We're BORN with them. They are immutable and unalienable. They can't be "revoked" anymore than you can revoke someone's gravity. __________________ "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin

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