Parking parking parking

[GarlicQueen]

...Phoenixville is classic of a totally mismanaged community because its residents are their own worst enemy....

I don't think it's the residents -- it's more that the Borough Council is overloaded with folks who have no vision. I think we should have 1 Council person/ward and 1 at large -- pare down the Council and get rid of these folks who are "rewarded" for their years of "political service" by getting to be on Council.

...Remember Phoenixville area suburbs have seen NO housing boom yet while town rush hour traffic already backs up waiting for multiple green lights....

Um, where do you live? I've been here since 1986 and I'd say there has been a *huge* housing boom since then. The "suburbs" of Phoenixville are filled with Sheetrock mansions!

...Do they plan a highway around the town with convenient off ramps to the business district? ...

Ain't no money in that! Who would pay for the highway and how would it generate revenue for the town?

...They now plan to fill this land with office buildings! How are all these office people to get into their offices?...

The thought on the office buildings is that it will create revenue for the town, which everyone has been desperate to do since the steel mill closed. Most of the plans I've seen put in new roads through the steel property -- I really don't see that the office buildings will make traffic any worse than it is now -- it should just re-route it differently.

...Visit Phoenixville when Route 422 backs up. This is what you should expect from every Chester and Montgomery County town where the people have no idea beyond the latest car crash on Action News. [...]The Schukyll Expressway - even conjested at 10 AM - is what the rest of the region will look like - if the region has any serious growth....

I would completely agree with this statement. The antidote, I think, is to clamor *heavily* for more public transportation.

...As for the Schyullkill Valley Metro, you must be dreaming!!! ...

Gotta dream -- can't do much else in all that traffic! ;-)

...Read the Inky's study of it, then realize the 'bribed and paid for' local politicans are doing everything they can to destroy it. ...

My impression is that it's the Philly and Delco politicos who don't want to spent the money -- for what I've heard, the local folks along the line *definately* want it (for obvious reasons! ;-)). It's getting those who *aren't* right on the line that are upset. . .



[Edited by GarlicQueen on 02-17-2001 at 07:20 PM]

[tw]

Originally posted by GarlicQueen

Um, where do you live? I've been here since 1986 and I'd say there has been a *huge* housing boom since then. The "suburbs" of Phoenixville are filled with Sheetrock mansions!

Ain't no money in that! Who would pay for the highway and how would it generate revenue for the town?

What you call a boom is what many other regions would call a recession. Philly has had little housing growth which is the only reason highways have not clogged.

There is plenty of money for highways. Just visit PA between Altoona and Pittsburgh - especially the Johnston region. Multiple lane divided highways that have no traffic. Its called incumbants and pork.

Even the Schukyll could be doubled in capacity - except that introverted ostriches have this "we fear to innovate" attitude expressed in lies such as "no room" or "too expensive". The reality is those same attitudes are why the Schukyll Valley Metro will not happen.

Philly has had a rare except to the "we fear" attitude. It is the Regional Rail modification through Center City. In any growing region, such projects occur at least every 10 years. In 30 some years, the PA side of Philly has seen expanded regional rails and the Blue Route. Nothing else. IOW Philly does about 1/2 of what other regions do who want to grow.

The thought on the office buildings is that it will create revenue for the town, which everyone has been desperate to do since the steel mill closed. Most of the plans I've seen put in new roads through the steel property -- I really don't see that the office buildings will make traffic any worse than it is now -- it should just re-route it differently.

Phoenixville, last I read a municipality summary, had over $1million is surplus! Those offices and road will only dump more traffic into existing bottlenecks such as where the Pontiac dealer was, the new mismanaged bridge over the Schukyll, and on a road through Valley Forge Park. Last time through Phoenixville, I still could not even see traffic light coordination - and that costs almost nothing. Phoenixville top management and business leaders are its own worst enemy.

An abandoned lumber yard burned down. Perfect. The road out of town should have beelined straight out, up French Creek to join Route 23 and 724 on the West side of town. Instead, the town built more stores and left the same obstructed streets as is.

Currently Phoenixville has no growth so that intersections remain just under capacity. It is the nature of traffic - conjestion is non-linear. It only takes a few more cars to back up traffic for many lights. Rush hour in Phoenixville is already at capacity - and will now become massive conjections if new homes sprout especially West and South.

As noted, if you think they have had growth, then you don't understand what has been happening in growing areas of America over the past 30 years. Phoenixville has had almost no growth - and negative growth compared to most of America.

[GarlicQueen]

....There is plenty of money for highways. Just visit PA between Altoona and Pittsburgh - especially the Johnston region. Multiple lane divided highways that have no traffic. Its called incumbants and pork. ....

We have neither the politicos who can bring the money in nor the land owned by the state to expand that way. . .

...Even the Schukyll could be doubled in capacity - except that introverted ostriches have this "we fear to innovate" attitude expressed in lies such as "no room" or "too expensive". ....

Considering that the Schukyll Expressway follows the Schukyll River on one side and a rather significant granite ridge on the other, just how would you propose expanding it?

....Phoenixville, last I read a municipality summary, had over $1million is surplus! ....

Most unfortunately true. The Council folks are too scared to spent it. Shortsightedness abounds around here! :-(

...Last time through Phoenixville, I still could not even see traffic light coordination - and that costs almost nothing....

No, it costs plenty, but PENNDot is willing to pay for it, if the Council would let them. Guess who can't get their act together to approve the funding?

...Phoenixville top management and business leaders are its own worst enemy....

Unfortunately, I *completely* agree with this statement! :-(

...An abandoned lumber yard burned down. Perfect. The road out of town should have beelined straight out, up French Creek to join Route 23 and 724 on the West side of town. Instead, the town built more stores and left the same obstructed streets as is. ...

Can't do that -- the lumber yard is owned by a family that was actually using the property for contractors. They are rebuilding the site, just taking forever to do it.

If Borough Council wouldn't take the steel property by eminent domain (which was owed back taxes for more than the property was worth!), you certainly can't expect them to condem a active business site! :-0

....Currently Phoenixville has no growth so that intersections remain just under capacity. [...]Phoenixville is already at capacity - and will now become massive conjections if new homes sprout especially West and South. ...

You can't possibily live here -- there are new houses already West and South and a darn awful lot of new housing development in what used to be open space on the North Side. There aren't any new businesses, but there are *plenty* of new houses and new kids cramming the school district.

....As noted, if you think they have had growth, then you don't understand what has been happening in growing areas of America over the past 30 years. Phoenixville has had almost no growth - and negative growth compared to most of America. ....

Based on what statistics? Everything out of Chester County and the state says that Chester County is the fastest growing county in PA and one of the fastest growing in the country -- Phoenixville isn't growing *as fast* as southern Chester County, but the latest Census figures are bouncing upwards (I helped gather them! ;-)). It's jobs and business that isn't growing. . .

[tw]

Originally posted by GarlicQueen

We have neither the politicos who can bring the money in nor the land owned by the state to expand that way. . .

Which is the point made in that Inky report on the Schukyll Metro - why it will not happen. An MBA attitude so prevalent on the East Coast. Finally the Delaware Valley Planning Commission had to collect Phoenixville politicans to avoid a default that would have destroyed credit ratings for all Philly area municipalities. With ostriches who crave power, how can any growth happen? Cited are some new homes South and West of Phoenixville. That home growth is near zero in growing regions of the country. It is considered high growth in a state that has negative growth comparitively.

That is the point. Having lived in the Philly region, you don't understand that Philly region is in negative growth compared to America. "I've grown accustom to the decay". Essencially no home growth in Phoenixville region and much growth along the Route 422 viaduct - in areas safety away from Phoenixville.

How poor is PA growing? Allentown is a suburb of NYC - not of Philadelphia.

Some builders during the booming 1990s withdrew development plans along Routes 724, etc because of lack of interest. On the east side of Phoenixville was some strong demand new home - but then those homes are east of the problem.

Considering that the Schukyll Expressway follows the Schukyll River on one side and a rather significant granite ridge on the other, just how would you propose expanding it?

You have just defined perfect foundations for expaned expressway. Convert the existing highway into all lanes in one direction. Build 4 more lanes adjacent or above. IOW you have bought into the "We fear" attitude by crying there is no room. It is there as you have noted. There is no money. It is spent where politicans bring home the pork and the area has long term plans.

Only the myopic would fear granite. We consume so much granite that mines exist in great numbers all through the Philly surburbs. Fly the puddle jumpers into Philly. Look at all those holes! (MBA types can't be bothered with window seats since they don't understand how to constantly learn.) What is removed from those holes? Granite. Granite along the Expressway is contruction material. Granite is only a problem to the myopic MBA types.

I keep harping on the same point since The Cellar Mark I. Push out the envelope. Stop thinking like an accountant, MBA, or political appointee (America's version of communist thinking). The Schukyll widening would have been a done deal 20 years ago IF region leaders were leaders - not myopic cost controllers. PA even was so stupid as to fear auto emmission regulations - and lost highway funding that left a Blue Route uncompleted for how many decades? In a state that has growth, such events would result in wholesale election disasters to every incumbant. But since too many think the near zero growth around Phoenixville is a housing boom, then fat, myopic, overpaid MBA educated politicans are protected.

We have met the enemy and he is us? Yes - look at the car dealers in Phoenixville. Phoenixville residents are so anti-American as to buy Pontiacs and Chevys. That is what you find from dumb consumers.

Blue Route - another classic example of a regions that is its own worst enemy. Show me one sign that says Blue Route. "Blue Route" is reported in the news and in personal directions. But a 'communist' mentality insists it is I-4xx or Mid-County Highway - what nonsense. It is the Blue Route. Label it as such. Signs should make Philly easy to transverse. Ahhh - but in a region where trivial housing growth in Phoenixville is called a housing boom - just forget having a highway properly labeled.

Can't do that -- the lumber yard is owned by a family that was actually using the property for contractors. They are rebuilding the site, just taking forever to do it.

If Borough Council wouldn't take the steel property by eminent domain (which was owed back taxes for more than the property was worth!), you certainly can't expect them to condem a active business site! :-0...

I got right down to the issue with a traffic engineer in a coffee shop. He sites Phoenixville as a classic morass. The lady in the Chamber of Commerce promotes Phoenixville as 'historic'. They spend $millions to restore a 1910 Quonset Hut with no idea for its use. It is an expensive eye sore - and in a flood plain! It should have been the new parking lot for a revitalized shopping district. Presently you can't get into the business district. Bridge Street must be doubled in size plus additional room for parking. But instead, all those crap buildings downtown - Phoenixville had them declared historic. No business district expansion is possible. No intelligent retail business would ever open in downtown Phoenixville. Only room for traffic and parking is to instead be filled with offices? MBA mentalities.

A Phoenixville viable business is an abandon lumber yard on their main business street - storage for construction equipment? Yes that is what most of the town is good for. Even a movie theater is subsidized because there is not enough parking even to bring in movie goers - let alone difficult roads and congested intersections. But stupid business leaders want to protect an obsolete technology - a movie theater. Communism survives in Phoenixville.

Try walking or riding a bike under that Mont Clare RR bridge on Bridge Street. Its not asphalt. Its rubber. Why? Roads are so poor that cars must careen out of control, shredding tread, to get into Phoenixville. And that is a newly rebuilt road. Its much easier to go shop in Collegeville. Do the powers that be or the residents understand this? No. Because they are used to thinking 'preserve trash building', that a few developments constitute a building boom, and in an MBA mentality tradition - solve problems by building more office complexs - the infastructure be damned.

Ever been inside the Phoenixville Water Plant? Ride a bicycle. That plant alone explains why the town's intelligent levels are lower. I don't know how Phoenixville water meets any standards and I avoid even drinking coffee made from Phoenixville water. I think they use Chlorox to purify the water.

There is growth in Chester County - in a state that is in negative growth compared to the nation. However, look at where the growth is. Upper Providence, Montco County is an example of normal growth. Exton Area has growth. There is growth all around Phoenixville - where people can get out without going through Phoenixville. On that Route 422 growth map in the Inky - areas south and west of Phoenixville have the least growth - for obvious reasons - Phoenixville and its citizens mentality.

Phoenixville has classic MBA mentality. They horde cash like an MBA. They waste time and money on a silly, ugly adandon steel foundry in some mythical belief that it is pretty. They declare slums as Historic buildings. They are so myopic as to put those brown signs up that say Historic Buisness District and spend extra money for those silly street lights on the Schukyll River bridge.

Residents next to the City Council building had to sue just to get rain water drains rebuilt. The entire neighborhood would flood during heavy rains because the drains, dating back to 1800s, had collapsed. These MBA type town fathers could not unblock street sewers why? Because it cost money. Because a sewer cannot be seen? MBA mentality exists because it resident all but worship Wharton School thinking - until they have to sue to get basic infastructure installed.

BTW, the city computers are in such chaos that a water employee was only caught when the water bill showed the city owed him money for water - and only when an employee noticed the bill. I happen to know that all their software is DOS based AND is not compatible even with Windows 3.1 - because like all good MBAs - they purchased only based on price.

[GarlicQueen]

... IOW you have bought into the "We fear" attitude by crying there is no room. It is there as you have noted. There is no money. It is spent where politicans bring home the pork and the area has long term plans....

I think you're taking a bit of a leap there saying that I've bought into the "we fear" attitude -- I don't doubt it could be done, but is the cost worth the benefit? Unfortunately, we don't have the folks in power who are willing to spend the cash to find that out. . .

...I got right down to the issue with a traffic engineer in a coffee shop. He sites Phoenixville as a classic morass...

I'd agree with that.

...The lady in the Chamber of Commerce promotes Phoenixville as 'historic'. They spend $millions to restore a 1910 Quonset Hut with no idea for its use. It is an expensive eye sore - and in a flood plain! ...

The problem is that Barbara Cohen is the only one in town with vision and willing to find the bucks to back up her vision. I don't particularly agree with her vision or think it's the wisest course, but by golly, she *is* bringing in the bucks, which no one else is doing to fund *their* vision!

....It should have been the new parking lot for a revitalized shopping district. Presently you can't get into the business district. Bridge Street must be doubled in size plus additional room for parking...

Considering how people enjoy malls, I'm not so sure that downtowns *anywhere* are viable anymore. I'm not so sure that spending money as you suggest would work. Can you cite any examples?

...Even a movie theater is subsidized because there is not enough parking even to bring in movie goers - let alone difficult roads and congested intersections. ...

Once again, it's there because folks are willing to write the grants to get the money to keep it going. One is tempted to say to either write the grants to fund your own dreams or shut up!

... Phoenixville has classic MBA mentality....

Actually, I think if someone in town actually had an MBA, let alone a college education, we'd see more "action" in town!

Anyone else have any opinions on Phoenixville?

[Undertoad]

Phoenixville has no charm, no class and its number-one destination is the hospital.

I would suggest building a three-story free parking lot in the middle of town and promise office developers a free tax ride for five years. Same promise to riverfront apartment developers. Put all police activity near the intersection. Year three, put something cultural at the waterfront like a stage with outdoor seating. Maybe a smooth jazz fest in conjuction with WJJZ and the new merchants in town to support the new development. Or folk every other Saturday night.

[tw]

Originally posted by Tony Shepps
Phoenixville has no charm, no class and its number-one destination is the hospital. ...

Interesting that someone is trying to solve the problem. Unfortunately he can't seem to make a bomb that works.

[russotto]

Originally posted by GarlicQueen

Considering that the Schukyll Expressway follows the Schukyll River on one side and a rather significant granite ridge on the other, just how would you propose expanding it?

The expressway couldn't even be built today given current engineering standards, let alone expanded. My personal favorite answer is a northern expressway on the other side of the river. This would require razing large parts of Norristown, which may be considered an extra bonus.

[richlevy]

Originally posted by tw

Why not? The regional rails are everywhere. I have even used SEPTA to get out to Port Jefferson on the north shore of Long Island for just over $20 if I remember. I believe the LIRR was the most expensive part.

Why drive into Philly anyway? If you can spend all that money driving in (typical cost is over $0.50 per mile), then you certainly can afford $20 parking fees. Center City does not even cost that much.

Compared to many big east coast cities, Philly is cheap (lesser expensive).

Actually, if you already own the car and pay the insurance, the cost for gas and "wear and tear" is a lot less than 0.50.

[tw]

Originally posted by richlevy
Actually, if you already own the car and pay the insurance, the cost for gas and "wear and tear" is a lot less than 0.50.

Actually the 'cost per mile' number was typically $0.70 per mile; rates vary even across county lines. So I cited the lowest number. These numbers were calculated back when gasoline was about $0.60 per gallon and were based upon an average car before SUVs became popular.

IOW the $0.50 per mile cost was a very conservative figure; driving costs were often higher then and are higher now.

Of course you could take lessons by doing what most American millionaires do - buy used Fords. Surprised? Most millionaire buy used cars - not new cars. Most millionaires by Fords - not expensive flashy machines. Driving is that expensive.

[elSicomoro]

I spent 2 months working at a store in Center City. When I was first told I was going there, the first thing in my mind was, "Well, I'll never be able to drive. No damned way I'm paying for parking." Little did I know that my company pays for monthly passes with no out-of-pocket expense. Schweet!

Now I work in Society Hill. And again, the company ponies up for free parking. Now I won't have to worry about finding a place to park near South Street anymore. :-)

Sorry...that just tickles me for some reason.

[Cerebus]

Just to make you all feel better about not living in the most expensive part of the country...

Take a drive into Fisherman's Wharf for the classic Frisco tourist thing. (FYI, the only people who say Frisco don't live there. Kind of the same way natives don't say Philly.) Parking for this merry little jaunt can -- easily -- top $30. I'm not kidding.

So you decide to take the BART train -- a lovely clean and marvelous thing, as nice as DC public transit. (The only really good thing about that town, IMO, although the restaurants aren't terrible, either.) This will cost you, from the end of the line in Fremont, $16 round trip.

So... I live about 45 minutes away from one of the finest cities in the world, and between the expense and the Have A Kid nature of our existence, only go there to entertain out-of-town guests. Sigh.

(The preceeding message has been brought to you by People Who Moved To Northern California And Would Like To Shut The Door Behind Them.)