Car question

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by tw

Suspect list could be shortened significantly by monitoring numbers from various sensors, as noted above. But you cannot do that without a maybe $120 computer that plugs into every car's computer (ie Car Chip). Check engine light can be cleared by that layman’s tool, or sometimes by a ‘diagnostic plug’.

Or even as cheap as $76.00. Looks like a neat little device, actually. Perhaps...

[monster]

Originally Posted by BigV

black electrical tape.

this

[monster]

Sorry, Fob. If it were me, I'd go for cheap fix and trade in, but I'm kind of biased because that's the point I'm at with my van. Or at least was before I wrote off the Focus....

[Clodfobble]

Instinctively I would have, but the guy scared me with the possibility (or outright lie?) that it might be completely non-functional with my car, and we'd be $600 poorer and no better off.

However, the check engine light has not yet come back on. We shall see, oh, we shall see....

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

It definitely is the catalytic converters failing. Both failed at the exact same time? Yes, because apparently what happened is the one failed, and then the added strain on the other was too much for it to bear so it failed very shortly after.

Well this has turned into a complete clusterfuck.

We told the mechanic we did not have the money for the repairs, and at any rate, we didn't have the time or energy to deal with this until after the holidays. He says no problem, but hey, they've got a no-interest financing option, and we should go ahead and apply for the card today so that the account will be active when we're ready. We are resigned to having to fix this at some point in the future, so we do the application. He also says that since the parts will take awhile to come in, he will order them now so that they will be in stock when we are ready.

So we drove all over Texas during the holidays, probably 1000 miles total, and the check engine light still did not come back on. The mechanic called me several times just before we left, and just after getting back, pushing me very hard to come back in and have the repairs done. Suspicious, we took it to a second mechanic... and the emissions tested just fine. Catalytic converters are A-OK, they said. HMMM.

We are prepared to call this a simple error on the first mechanic's part, though we suspect he may have known that the initial error was really just a bad tank of gas. But before we can call him to tell him the "good" news, he calls us and leaves a message cheerfully saying that they have gone ahead and charged the no-interest account we opened for $2,303, for the repair we "authorized," and wondering again when we will come in and have it done.

What the fucking fuck?!

Mr. Clod calls, and lets the guy know 1.) about the good test results on the catalytic converters, for which the guy has no explanation, 2.) that we have closed the goddamn account, and 3.) that we will be disputing the charges, and he's insane if the thinks that the card issuer is going to let him charge for parts he still has in his possession and labor he never did. The guy starts talking about restocking fees for the parts, and the conversation ends at an impasse, with Mr. Clod refusing the proposed 25% and the mechanic saying he'll check with the parts manufacturer and find out if they can "cut us a break." We actually agreed between ourselves that we'd be willing to pay 10% (of the parts cost only, certainly not the labor) just to make the problem go away, but the guy never called back to negotiate further.

So fine. Royal screwing averted, never going back to that mechanic again. Still have to deal with getting the charges off the account, but we feel confident that will happen, it will just take some legwork. Done and done.

And then yesterday, the check engine light comes back on. Fucking fuck.

If the shitty mechanic had just been patient, we'd be in his shop right now, getting the repair done. But his behavior regarding the credit card is unforgiveable, so at best we're going to someone else. Except, of course, we still don't have the money for the repair, and what are the chances that we will be able to open a no-interest car repair account now, when we just opened one, closed it days later, and currently still have $2300 sitting on it? I find that unlikely.

Kelly Blue Book is worse than we thought, the minivan is at best worth $2300 in its entirety, maybe less. So I purchased an OBD-II code reader off Amazon, with which I can shut off the light myself, and hopefully we can trade it in quickly before it comes on again. We did find another MPV at a dealer that is 2 years newer, has less than half the mileage, and is listed at $8000. So that's probably the one we'll get, if we can make the trade-in work.

Sigh.

[Lamplighter]

Geeeeessh, what an episode.
If you've not signed a work order, just deny deny deny.

Maybe once you get the check engine light turned off, and good gas,
it might help to invest in a new gas cap, and be sure it's on tight at each filling.

A second mechanic on a different side of town might be a good investment too.

[Clodfobble]

It's not the gas cap, man. The code that came up today is the same one as before, failing catalytic converter. The car is almost 9 years old and has 155,000 miles, it's not that surprising.

[HungLikeJesus]

Clodfobble - what you suggest seems a bit unethical.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

It's not the gas cap, man. The code that came up today is the same one as before, failing catalytic converter.

Now that you have a reader, view the oxygen sensor voltage yourself. As posted long ago, if the O2 sensor is defective, it is reporting a voltage reading that is off on the edge. Intermittent. Therefore the engine computer is intermittently dumping wrong amounts of fuel into the engine. Different gas even from the same station will push that marginal voltage over and back behind a failure line. Obvious when the diagnostic port provides an actual volt number.

Still never answered were answers to tests that would have said so much more. For example, floor it after each restart. Because (and again) some defects are only reported when the accelerator is moved the exact same way after every consecutive restart.

Eventually that defect will become so bad that any mechanic can find it. But this you know because my post was based in provided and known facts. No reasons existed to suspect catalytic converters as defective. Your emission tester only confirmed what was obvious because reasons for that conclusion were also posted.

Engine light and code does not say what is wrong (as others have mistakenly assumed). It only says where to start looking. “Looking”: as in CSI's, "Follow the evidence." Viewing actual numbers - ie voltage from that oxygen sensor. Which is read from the computer by an OBD2 reader (ie Car Chip) attached to the diagnostic port.

What should be obvious to all and is obvious to you - a gas cap has zero relationship to what comes out the exhaust.

Now, did the $2+K mechanic explain the whys as I have done? Welcome to everything in the world. Without reasons why AND numbers, then the guy (any guy) is probably lying. Welcome to history taught by Saddam's WMDs.

Better dealers have a big computer that both reads those numbers AND does the voltage analysis for them (and you). Did the garage that did emission tests use that computer? Or just test emissions with a wand inside the exhaust pipe? Did he provide actual numbers for CO, CO2, NOx etc? Nobody cares if those numbers are good or bad. Only relevant is the actual value and what the manufacturer limits for each were supposed to be.

Whereas the problem could be with other system parts, one likely suspect was one particular oxygen sensor that was not the O2 sensors others were only assuming. Reread those posts to see what your emission test station may have also confirmed.

A diagnostic port is only reporting on what sees symptoms. It does not report what is wrong - as your $2+K mechanic probably has done. Due to marginal operation of a first oxygen sensor, then other following oxygen sensors (after the cat converter) may be reporting symptoms of that defect.

This is only hard if others assume a diagnostic message actually reports a problem. Diagnostic message about the cat converters never said those are defective. Only said what is coming out is incorrect - only reported a symptom. Use the OBD2 to read voltages from that O2 sensor - which is not the one reporting an error. And answer all previous questions including those from last month.

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

It's not the gas cap, man. The code that came up today is the same one as before, failing catalytic converter. The car is almost 9 years old and has 155,000 miles, it's not that surprising.

OK... no reproach intended

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by HungLikeJesus

Clodfobble - what you suggest seems a bit unethical.

Yes, it does.

On the other hand, I don't believe that a dealership is going to resell this vehicle for anything but scrap. At this level, what they are really doing is mentally figuring the cost difference as just a discount on the car I'm buying, and taking possession of the trade-in as a convenience. But if I don't have that "valid" trade-in, it will be harder to negotiate the same discount they could have given me anyway.

Originally Posted by tw

And answer all previous questions including those from last month.

You crack me up, tw. Seriously. When the OBDII reader gets here (5-8 business days with FREE SUPER SAVER SHIPPING,) I'll see if I can figure out how to get it to report a voltage number for both O2 sensors. Just for you, because you made me laugh.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

When the OBDII reader gets here (5-8 business days with FREE SUPER SAVER SHIPPING,) ...

Those many previous questions required no ODB2.

For example. Start the car. Drive it on a fixed course that includes one spot where you literally floor it. Do not turn off the engine until you are right back where you started. Repeat that at least three times. Its computer might seea a same failure all three times. But does not report some failures until you have driven it the exact same way after each new restart.

Asked were other important questions such as how an emissions test was performed. By connecting to the computer diagnostic port? By using an exhaust pipe wand? What were numbers for each pollutant? Also important information. And did not require an ODB2.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by tw

For example. Start the car. Drive it on a fixed course that includes one spot where you literally floor it. Do not turn off the engine until you are right back where you started. Repeat that at least three times. Its computer might seea a same failure all three times. But does not report some failures until you have driven it the exact same way after each new restart.

I don't have the CarPro scanner, the check engine light is currently my only method of failure reporting. Right now, the light is already on. It does not go off without being manually reset.

Originally Posted by tw

Asked were other important questions such as how an emissions test was performed. By connecting to the computer diagnostic port? By using an exhaust pipe wand? What were numbers for each pollutant? Also important information. And did not require an ODB2.

We didn't watch it happen. It was done however your average state inspection place does it. We didn't get any numbers, we just got a piece of paper indicating that it passed the state inspection threshold (which I am told is somewhat lower than the check engine light threshold.)

[plthijinx]

stay tuned. there will be another job posted in my projects thread.

[Clodfobble]

Because plt is the coolest and most awesomest person in the world!