10/01/02: Religion is a bunch of fucking bunk.

[juju]

I got an essay back today that I wrote for my Anthropology of Religion class, and I received a 90%! This is very exciting for me, because although it's not 100%, i've been doing pretty lousy in school through lack of motivation these past couple of semesters. It's very depressing to know exactly how to do well in school, but not actually do well because I can't make myself do the work. So, this is a great ego-boost for me, especially since I also got 100% on my last Cultural Anthropolgy exam. I'm posting my paper below. I suspect that this might come off as lame and boring, seeing as how I don't particularly like reading most college essays myself. However, this is the most interesting thing that's happened to me today, aside from playing Quake III with my lovely wife. And I doubt you want a play-by-play of that. So, onto the journal pages this goes. The assignment was to write 2 pages, double spaced, on your our of religion, how it's affected your life, what it's role is in society, etc. It's basically just a 'what's your opinion' paper, and you can't really go wrong with a subject like that.

---

I am not religious, but religion does have a direct effect on my life. Christians in particular are always changing my society for the worse. For example, I can't buy beer on Sunday. In fact, a lot of businesses I'd like to buy things from are closed on Sundays. Also, I can't say things like "god dammit!" or "Jesus Christ!" without getting strange looks. I really enjoy saying these things, and I don't think like I should feel like an outsider because of it. Also, Christians are always trying to suppress the things I love, like Dungeons & Dragons, video games, music, movies, novels, cursing, and sex. They're always harassing my gay friends, and making sure the government never gives them marriage rights. They're welcome to their own opinions, of course. Unfortunately, they never stop at just having an opinion. They feel they must actively force their opinions on others. It wouldn't be so bad if they actually had a logical reason for their beliefs. You can't reason with them, though, because they don't use reason or logic. In short, religious people in America are always trying to screw it up for the rest of us.

What follows is my personal theory on how religion came about. It's only my opinion! It's as close to a model as I've been able to figure out.

Humans comprehend their environment by giving meaning to objects. When a human sees a new object, he observes it and tries to associate some meaning to it. If he doesn't understand the object, he becomes frightened and angry. Sometimes, if no meaning can be found, one is simply made up and adopted as truth. This is how religion was born. It's much easier to just make something up rather than face the frustration of not knowing. The fear of not knowing the answer to a whole slew of philosophical questions is too much for most people. Humans are endlessly driven to understand everything. This isn't so much because we feel that knowledge is a noble quest. It's just that not knowing the answer is extremely agitating. Whether the meaning is true or not is irrelevant; people just want that warm fuzzy feeling that comes with knowing everything.

Well, I'm sure you're asking, why did I take this class if I think it's all a bunch of nonsense? Well, I find religion fascinating in a Robin Hood or King Arthur sort of way. I've always loved fantasy and science fiction novels, and the core of a good fantasy story has always been a detailed and elaborate world for its main characters to participate in. Most religions have also assembled extremely detailed and fascinating worlds to explain the unknown. It's fascinating to read about them, and wonder whether or not they're true.

Beyond the story aspect, though, I'm also intrigued by religion's incredible power to control people. When it comes to making people do what you want, it's more powerful than a gun. After all, a gun can only be pointed at a few people at a time. Religion can control the actions and morality of an entire continent, long after the religion's founder has died. And, unlike victims at gunpoint, religious followers will be more than happy to do all sorts of insane things.

All people form a mental model of the world inside their head. Religion can be thought of as the type of architecture of that mental model. Thought of in that way, religion can be seen to control potentially everything about a person, including the way they think and act. It's this that draws me to study religion the most. I'll have to deal with people all my life, so it's extremely important to me to understand how their mind works and how they view the world.

---

The instructor's comment at the end of the paper read:

Regardless of your personal convictions, you have presented ample critical insight into religion as a human construct. I do appreciate your candor and sincerity, and your extreme intellectualist viewpoint about religious thought.

How cool is that??

Let's play some Q3 some time. You have OSP installed? http://www.orangesmoothie.com - you need version 1.01 for Quake3. :)

[juju]

Sounds great. :) Message me via AIM (juju111) and we'll hook up. I'm about to go to work now, so try me after 10pm tonight, or anytime tommorrow.

[Tobiasly]

Originally posted by juju
Christians in particular are always changing my society for the worse. For example, I can't buy beer on Sunday.

You shouldn't lump all Christians together thusly. I'm a Christian, but I'm 100% against blue laws. The reason it's Christians in particular that you feel trod upon you is -- are you ready for this? -- the U.S. is predominantly Christian. (Since you live in Arkansas, I'm assuming it's worse than usual for you.) True separation of curch and state would be nice, but I don't think it'll ever happen. Again, I'm not saying I like the way things are, just that some of it will never change. Our currency will never not say "In God We Trust."

That said, I really think that if someone took a particular government to court to get blue laws appealed, they'd have a pretty good chance of succeeding in today's climate. Especially if they can show harm, such as a liquor store owner that says he's losing business because of the lack of separation of church and state. I haven't researched this, but I wonder if anyone has done this, and if not, why?

In fact, a lot of businesses I'd like to buy things from are closed on Sundays.

If they aren't closed because of a law, you've got no reason to complain. The store owner chooses when he'll open, and that's his right. I'd like to be able to buy a Filet-O-Fish at 3 a.m., but that's not possible.

Humans comprehend their environment by giving meaning to objects. When a human sees a new object, he observes it and tries to associate some meaning to it. If he doesn't understand the object, he becomes frightened and angry. Sometimes, if no meaning can be found, one is simply made up and adopted as truth. This is how religion was born. It's much easier to just make something up rather than face the frustration of not knowing.

What if the existence of an all-powerful being is the only logical conclusion that can be drawn? When I dissected animals in high school biology, and witnessed the awesome intricacy of their tissues, organs, and how it all worked together, the only thing I could think of was "there's no way this just happened." I believe in evolution as well; I just believe God guided it.

But my point is, just because there is no physical proof that God exists, doesn't mean that everyone who believes He does exist came to that conclusion by just pulling it out of their ass.

[juju]

Originally posted by Tobiasly
You shouldn't lump all Christians together thusly. I'm a Christian, but I'm 100% against blue laws. The reason it's Christians in particular that you feel trod upon you is -- are you ready for this? -- the U.S. is predominantly Christian. (Since you live in Arkansas, I'm assuming it's worse than usual for you.) True separation of curch and state would be nice, but I don't think it'll ever happen. Again, I'm not saying I like the way things are, just that some of it will never change. Our currency will never not say "In God We Trust."

Well, the problem is that a lot of the people who call themselves Christians have such a wildly varied set of beliefs, that the word Christian is in danger of losing it's meaning (at least to me). These days, anyone can say they're a Christian and won't be questioned. So, i'm faced with two options. One, I can define 'Christian' as a person with the values that the majority of Christians I see today hold. Or two, I can give up and accept that saying you're a Christian means absolutly nothing except that you believe in God. I have chosen the first option, and the majority of Christians I see are completely nuts. I have met some people who say they're Christians who act competely normally (such as yourself). Quite truthfully, this baffles me. How can you associate yourself with such nutjobs? My wife's family is the same way. They say they're Christians, but they act pretty normally to me. For example, if they read and obeyed the bible, they would be anti-gay. But they're not. I don't get it. I consider nice people like yourself and my wife's family to not really be Christians. In my mind, if you're not completely insane, then you're not really a Christian. I know this isn't the case, but it helps me sort it out in my head.

Anyway, i'm highly predjudiced against Christians because of the all the nutjobs i've seen. This introduces a certain irrationality into my thinking on this matter, and I know this. So i'm sure you could probably decimate everything I just said. How about if I just admit that I have a problem? :)

Originally posted by Tobiasly
That said, I really think that if someone took a particular government to court to get blue laws appealed, they'd have a pretty good chance of succeeding in today's climate. Especially if they can show harm, such as a liquor store owner that says he's losing business because of the lack of separation of church and state. I haven't researched this, but I wonder if anyone has done this, and if not, why?

That would be awesome. :) Actually, i've never drank alcohol, so it doesn't really affect me. The teacher doesn't know this, though. And I do feel that I should have the right, even if I don't choose to exercise it. I mean, it is complete nonsense.

Originally posted by Tobiasly
If they aren't closed because of a law, you've got no reason to complain. The store owner chooses when he'll open, and that's his right. I'd like to be able to buy a Filet-O-Fish at 3 a.m., but that's not possible.

I agree that law isn't really an issue, but I wasn't addressing that. Even so, I don't agree with your logic at all. The law itself guarantees my right to bitch about whatever I want. I do agree that I can't do anything about it, since it's the store owner's choice. But one of the things the teacher asked us to address is how religion has affected us. Since the owner's choice is based on religion, I felt justified in putting it in.

Originally posted by Tobiasly
What if the existence of an all-powerful being is the only logical conclusion that can be drawn? When I dissected animals in high school biology, and witnessed the awesome intricacy of their tissues, organs, and how it all worked together, the only thing I could think of was "there's no way this just happened." I believe in evolution as well; I just believe God guided it.

But my point is, just because there is no physical proof that God exists, doesn't mean that everyone who believes He does exist came to that conclusion by just pulling it out of their ass.

Hmm... a debate on this topic would be in danger of going on forever. :]

My human evolution teacher knew a lot about human anatomy, and he used to bring up all sorts of examples of how the human body is constructed extremely poorly. He claimed that if a concious being did design us, then he/she must have been drunk or incredibly stupid. Unfortunately, I don't posses his great knowledge of anatomy, and I can't remember any of his examples. But here is a fairly good FAQ on exactly this subject. Since i'm not a scientist or medical doctor, i'm probably not very well equipped to argue this point. I'm putting my faith in what these people are saying, though, because they seem to have it together.

I think you believe because you want to believe. The idea of God and the afterlife is very attractive. After all, you don't have to die, you can live forever. The rest is just a matter of how you're going to rationalize your way to believing it. I think if you really studied the evidence at length, you'd realize that chance can invent humans. I guess this might be kind of insulting, and I hope you won't be mad. Please don't yell at me! I still respect your opinion, and I'm just being honest about how I feel. :)

[Xugumad]

Tobiasly
What if the existence of an all-powerful being is the only logical conclusion that can be drawn?

Then the individual drawing the conclusion needs to either take some classes in Logic and Metaphysics, or to read a few books on the subject matter.

[...]the only thing I could think of was "there's no way this just happened"

In what way is this a logical conclusion? All you are saying is that you do not have the individual understanding or scope of knowledge to know how "this" happened. Mind you, nobody really does. But then people also assumed the earth was flat, and we lived in a geoocentric universe, for the very same reason.

believe in evolution as well; I just believe God guided it.

Ah, belief. If we keep Faith separate from logic, everyone will be happy. As I have Faith myself, I need to remind myself of that reasonably often.

doesn't mean that everyone who believes He does exist came to that conclusion by just pulling it out of their ass

That is certainly true, and I fully agree with you. However, there is a worryingly large number of people who come to organized religion through indoctrination and thoughtless dogma, rather than Faith and genuine discovery of God. This does not only apply to Christianity, of course.

X.

PS: On logic, and the theory of knowledge, I recommend Wittgenstein's Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus, and Bertrand Russell's Problems of Philosophy. The latter is a decent, short introductory text. As additional texts, I recommend ISBN: 0195115511 and 0671203231, both by Bertrand Russell.

[jaguar]

Thanks for the texts X.

Before I go any further, I’m atheist but follow and enjoy some buddhist beliefs.

My human evolution teacher knew a lot about human anatomy, and he used to bring up all sorts of examples of how the human body is constructed extremely poorly. He claimed that if a conscious being did design us, then he/she must have been drunk or incredibly stupid. Unfortunately, I don't posses his great knowledge of anatomy, and I can't remember any of his examples. But here is a fairly good FAQ on exactly this subject. Since I’m not a scientist or medical doctor, I’m probably not very well equipped to argue this point. I'm putting my faith in what these people are saying, though, because they seem to have it together.

I'd like to ask god why I have an appendix. Or wisdom teeth. Not to mention such pissweak skin, or that little bit of skin at the bottom of your nails. It not hard to find examples.

Some of my best friends are Christians, I try and avoid direct confrontations on the issue, they are for the large part, pointless and messy. The bible, all things considered is an amazingly accurate document, and is in itself a fascinating thing to study. For a while I had an interest in comparing the Hebrew, Aramaic and English translations of the old testament. Of particular interest (and there are several textbooks that pick up on this) is pre-Moses in the old testament there are three separate names that are sued to refer to god, each of which correlates to a different personality, or types of acts, which as led some people myself included to believe that the original intent was that there was 3 separate gods. It’s a very contentious topic, but fascinating. One of the most interesting thing about Christians I found is when you ask some difficult questions ("why was the apple tree in the garden in the first place, isn't that a bit like putting razor blades in a sand pit?" "Isn't it a bit unfair that people who have never even heard of Christianity before they die will go to hell though no fault of their own?" etcetcetc) you tend to get an amazing variety of answers, based on church, personal beliefs and bible version/interpretation.

The vast majority of people my age I know that are Christian are because their families are and really, cannot defend their beliefs very well at all, indeed it is without faith. There are a few who are 'born again' Christians though, some of which *really* get up my nose, particularly when unable to defeat a statement they reply with "you're going to hell", or "ill pray for you". People like that make me sad. On the other hand I know some extremely intelligent Christians who are open for discussion about some of the tougher aspects of their religion and can defend well their beliefs without imposing them on others.

[juju]

Well said, Jag. I agree that there are some very nice and intelligent Christians. All they're doing, though, is taking their already reasonable worldview, and picking and choosing all the sane things from Chrisitianity that coincide with their already held beliefs. All the really fucked up stuff that's in the bible they just ignore. The people who get their morality and worldview directly from Bible tend to complete nutjobs.

I think that religion has a tendency to promote illogical thinking. Some people may be able to resist this trap, but most can't.

[Undertoad]

I'd like to ask god why I have an appendix. Or wisdom teeth. Not to mention such pissweak skin, or that little bit of skin at the bottom of your nails. It not hard to find examples.

"Only a civil engineer would route a toxic waste pipeline through a recreational area."

/punchline

[Tobiasly]

Originally posted by juju
Or two, I can give up and accept that saying you're a Christian means absolutly nothing except that you believe in God.

Jews, Muslims, and many others believe in God -- arguably the same God. Christian means you believe in Christ as your savior. So your second definition is a little too broad. :)

How can you associate yourself with such nutjobs? ... In my mind, if you're not completely insane, then you're not really a Christian. I know this isn't the case, but it helps me sort it out in my head.

I don't associate myself with those nutjobs... that's why I don't want you to lump as all together! Seeing as how you've now defined your definition of Christians as just the nutty ones, that's fine with me -- you just might want to make that known.

Hmm... a debate on this topic would be in danger of going on forever. :]

True, I didn't want to debate evolution vs. creation or anything. But I have a hard time believing that most people can accept anything on blind faith for their entire lives. It's just not in human nature to do so. I have personally seen much evidence in my life that God exists, and so I have no problem with believing it.

My human evolution teacher knew a lot about human anatomy, and he used to bring up all sorts of examples of how the human body is constructed extremely poorly. He claimed that if a concious being did design us, then he/she must have been drunk or incredibly stupid.

Or maybe that Being intentionally designed us with flaws. Just because some Perfect Being could have designed us much better and didn't, has nothing to do with whether he did design us, or whether he exists in the first place. Either way, I'm sure he just loved getting a rise out of all those nutjob Christians when he suggested that God was drunk or stupid.

The whole "why did God design us with fucked-up bodies" issue reminds me of the "if God is all-powerful, why does he allow evil and suffering to exist" issue. It's not black and white -- inefficient bodies vs. efficient ones, good vs. evil. It's a spectrum, and we put things into perspective based on the extremes that we've witnessed in our universe.

If our bodies were designed to be 500% more efficient than they are, we would still say "why are our bodies so inefficient? Why do I have to eat an apple every week in order to still function?" Or if we had a titanium exoskeleton instead of skin, "why is our skin so weak? Why can't I walk into a nuclear reactor and not be killed?"

If these examples seem far-fetched, it's because we're used to the extremes as they exist in our universe.

[Tobiasly]

Originally posted by juju
Well said, Jag. I agree that there are some very nice and intelligent Christians. All they're doing, though, is taking their already reasonable worldview, and picking and choosing all the sane things from Chrisitianity that coincide with their already held beliefs. All the really fucked up stuff that's in the bible they just ignore. The people who get their morality and worldview directly from Bible tend to complete nutjobs.

I think you're pretty close there. But I think it's more an issue of literal vs. figurative interpretation rather than picking and choosing. One of the things I find humorous is how people think God literally created the universe in seven earth days. Hmmm... it's pretty hard to base creation of the universe off of the rotation of some chunk of rock that didn't even exist when the clock started!

[Tobiasly]

Originally posted by Xugumad
Ah, belief. If we keep Faith separate from logic, everyone will be happy. As I have Faith myself, I need to remind myself of that reasonably often.

That's not true. When people remove logic from faith, shit hits the fan. I'm sure juju would agree with that.

[juju]

The fact remains, though, that Christians are the cause of all of the things I listed in that first paragraph. I certainly didn't intend to imply that all of them collectively decided to screw the world up. I Just meant that the people who are screwing things up happen to be Christian.

[juju]

Originally posted by Tobiasly
Jews, Muslims, and many others believe in God -- arguably the same God. Christian means you believe in Christ as your savior. So your second definition is a little too broad. :)

I don't associate myself with those nutjobs... that's why I don't want you to lump as all together! Seeing as how you've now defined your definition of Christians as just the nutty ones, that's fine with me -- you just might want to make that known.

I know I shouldn't generalize, and this is a big problem of mine in this area. You're right to criticize me. It's just that some Christians piss me off so much, that I have very hard time seeing the good parts.

Originally posted by Tobiasly
Or maybe that Being intentionally designed us with flaws. Just because some Perfect Being could have designed us much better and didn't, has nothing to do with whether he did design us, or whether he exists in the first place.

I thought your argument for the existence of God was based on perfection and immense complexity? Or is it just immense complexity that convinces you of the existence of God? You don't think immensely complex systems can arise through chance?

Originally posted by Tobiasly
Either way, I'm sure he just loved getting a rise out of all those nutjob Christians when he suggested that God was drunk or stupid.

Naw, the kind of person that would get offended by that would never take a class on Human Evolution.

[jaguar]

Gah, it comes down to interpretation of the bible. Many churches now choose to ignore much of the Old Testament. The second is contextualization of the content to understand its meaning.

For example: The verses where women must be silent, not teach men etc. These verses were written while the writer was in a city that was heavily populated by a women-only cult (Diane I think if I remember correctly - been a good 6 months since I’ve touched this stuff) which had caused allot of harm (there is allot more to it, but that is the basics) and thus those verses must be seen in that light, not from a modern perspective. This contextualization is essential to a more correct understanding of the bible and requires often extensive research.

Or maybe that Being intentionally designed us with flaws. Just because some Perfect Being could have designed us much better and didn't, has nothing to do with whether he did design us, or whether he exists in the first place. Either way, I'm sure he just loved getting a rise out of all those nutjob Christians when he suggested that God was drunk or stupid.

I thought we were created in god's image? On of the arguments thrown around by creationists for the teaching of it is the banana - designed for human consumption, easy to open, tastes nice, has a freshness meter (skin colour) built in. Of course they ignore the 1000000 examples to the opposite. Look lets ALL avoid directly attacking or defending our respective religions, that truly is pointless and stick to the more interesting abstract parts of religion.

The fact remains, though, that Christians are the cause of all of the things I listed in that first paragraph. I certainly didn't intend to imply that all of them collectively decided to screw the world up. I Just meant that the people who are screwing things up happen to be Christian.

Correlation != cause-effect relationship. Arguably many of those in power are Christian because we line in a predominately Christian society, if you lived in Pakistan you may say the same thing about Muslims. There is no proof their Christianity is the cause of their bad deeds, although arguable it is the justification or basis for at least some of them. The problem with religion as a jsutification for anything is it allows the justification of the unjustifiable becase of its abstractness the bloody (as in blood everywhere) crusades, the inquisitions, abortion clinic bombings, flying planes into the WTC, its so easy for people to use their religion to justify acts that clearly are against their own religion.

Christian means you believe in Christ as your savior. So your second definition is a little too broad. :)

I think its more about accepting Christ as your savior and attempting to live by the rules of god. It gets messy.

Evolution.........The only counterarguement i heard that i liked was "if god created the earth, then it woudl not be hard to put a few fossils around to confuse us". In fact many o the best ideas come from christians who understand that Christ/God mayjsut have had a sens of humour. There is one verse where a woman is brought to jesus, proclaimed guilty of adultery, they ask where she should be stoned to death or not. He is put in a dilemma - if he says no, he in riling against the states laws, if he says yes, it is unchristian as such. So instead he jsut ignroes them and draws in the sand with a stick, that one always made me crack up.