London Bombing

[mrnoodle]

I guess I know that on some level.

But I'm scared, because a large chunk of the world wants me dead. And whether or not the original intent of Islam was good or evil, we see what it has become. Arafat was a demi-god. bin Laden is a rock star. al Jazeera lies, and people hang on its every word.

Who the hell are we supposed to be profiling here? If you go to Iran, and scratch any muslim, underneath you are likely to find...if not a terrorist, someone who believes what the terrorists are doing is just.

That's just the way it is. Our view is colored by the fact that we live in a tolerant state. We just can't imagine that a whole people would want us dead. But most of em do. They just do. I didn't make it up.

[vsp]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

I understand turning the other cheek. But at some point you have to look at WHO IS DOING THE KILLING. The people you wish to embrace are plotting your death right this minute. When will you see? They don't want to be your damn friends. They don't want your compassion, they don't care whether you go to bat for them against the old mean Republicans. They want your body blown to shreds for Allah.

NO SHIT, SHERLOCK.

Believe it or not, if I flip over my ACLU card it doesn't read "Al-Qaeda Supporters' Club Local #405" on the back. My support or lack thereof for Dubya, his war and his agenda wouldn't mean a flying fuck to J. Random Terrorist; if I'm in the wrong bus or plane or building or block at the wrong time when something happens, I'll be just as dead of a motherfucker as if I'd been screaming "ALLAH AKBAR" when it went down. The people who are enabling and encouraging violent actions are sick and disturbed and need to be taken down hard. If they catch those responsible for today's bombings and hang bits of them on Nelson's Column, I won't complain one bit.

There's the key phrase: "those responsible." Islam is not responsible. Iraq is not responsible. Iran is not responsible. The Middle East in general is not responsible. The Muslims of the world are not responsible. An organized group of violent assholes is responsible. That group is at whom I direct my venom, not at those around them who share nothing with them except geographic proximity or a common religion.

I may disagree with Lookout regarding how to _rectify_ the situation and seek to avoid future attacks, but at least he and I both put the emphasis on "terrorist" and not on "Islamic." Failure to condemn Islam and its proponents does not constitute "turning the other cheek" or "embracing the attackers," and fuck you very much for suggesting such. If you feel that a "drive the Muslims into the sea" response is more appropriate, that's your business, but the truth is so far away that you can't even see it from there.

[Radar]

Islam is no more or less violent than Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, or any other religion. Islam does not teach hate anymore than Christianity does. Those who claim such only prove their ignorance of the subject.

This has nothing to do with Islam and has everything to do with U.S. foreign policy and sticking our noses into areas where it doesn't belong. It has to do with the U.S. invading nations that never posed a threat to America and murdering hundreds of thousands of people, and trying to force a government of our choosing on them. It has to do with decades of U.S. intervention resulting in millions dying in the middle-east.

The U.S. is not a Christian Nation, it's not a Muslim Nation, it's not a Jewish nation, etc. and it's about time the morons out there trying to spread U.S. Policy abroad got that through their thick skulls.

For the record there have been at least 100 Muslims murdered by Christians for every Christian murdered by a Muslim.

[Queen of the Ryche]

[quote=vsp]

There's the key phrase: "those responsible." Islam is not responsible. Iraq is not responsible. Iran is not responsible. The Middle East in general is not responsible. The Muslims of the world are not responsible. An organized group of violent assholes is responsible. That group is at whom I direct my venom, not at those around them who share nothing with them except geographic proximity or a common religion.

[quote]

what you said. sorry if I misunderstood you noodle - I agree. terrorists are bad. they need to go bye bye. okay, I'm done now. back to you.

[warch]

What these particular murderers do have is a powerful weapon in their religious perversion. It provides them human ammo, their sense of justification, and a mutated PR hook. So how do you promote Islamic moderation and squelch the extreemist expressions? What gets often dissed as wimp ass "therapy" is actually an important tactic here. I'm not saying you shouldnt fight back strong, take out the murderers, but fight smart, on lots of fronts. its not war vs police, its war and police and intelligence and economics and media and politics and global will and...

[mrnoodle]

First, let me apologize for calling names. It's dumb.

Secondly, let me reiterate that I don't hate anyone. Nor do I think that all muslims should be eradicated (although they feel we should).

But the sooner we realize that we are ALL targets, and 9/10 muslims in ANY part of the world wouldn't so much as shed a tear at our death, the safer we will be.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean someone's not out to get you. I can see this kind of reaction after Pearl Harbor.... "hey now, let's not become hateful, like the handful of extremists who bombed our military base. What did the president do to make them mad and CAUSE them to do this?"

[lookout123]

maybe your mistake is in believing that most of the people you meet on a daily basis aren't of the very same nature. if you scratch the surface of the average american, do they wish death or at least a bad case of athlete's foot upon someone? i think you might be surprised.

there are some rabid "kill all the dark skins" types, that we choose to ignore. there are more vocal "kill the muslim" types, even more "kill the muslim extremist" types, and so on. we are people. people across the globe aren't all that different.

and "profiling"? i don't know that we should be profiling anyone. be aware of everything around you. be aware of the people around you. is that guy with the dark skin a friendly siek or a rabid wahabbist with a stick of TNT jammed up his rectum? what about that white guy? is he an accountant moving into a new home, or is he a nutjob with a van loaded with explosives intended for a government building?

be aware. be wary. don't be paranoid.

whole people would want us dead. But most of em do

no they don't. they don't know you or give a damn about me. they are living their lives. a bunch of people want a bunch of other people dead. the trick is to separate those with ill intentions from the rest, and that is impossible if you think they are all the same.

[mrnoodle]

if that's true, where's the outcry from the muslim rank and file? where are the blogs, the radio and TV interviews, the books and magazine articles from muslims denouncing the killing?

[vsp]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

First, let me apologize for calling names. It's dumb.

Fair enough.

But the sooner we realize that we are ALL targets

And we always have been.

Most of us here in America were somewhat sheltered from the realities of terrorism before 9/11, and it was such a rude wake-up call that I suppose I can't blame people for still being freaked out. However, I don't think there's a square inch of turf in the world that could truly be considered "safe," unless it's out in the middle of some Aborigine plateau that few people even know exists, but where the spiders and snakes are more likely to get you than anything else.

Some clips from today's British blogs, snitched from another site:

There has been a widespread outbreak of grumbling and tutting today in London, along with a large number of people going home instead of to work, with a certain amount of guilty pleasure.

Sorry, bad guys. We've been bombed before, and we just adjust our day to account for it. This is London calling.

Ooh. I shoul dswitch Fox News on...

Yep. Far more dramatic. If I'd ben watching this on its own, I'd be convinced that the whole of London was a crater.

And it's taken 30 seconds to link it to Iraq and a war on Christianity. Good going, Fox!

Did Londoners still react differently to New Yorkers? Yes, they evidently did. Culturally, we are very different cities. Londoners are proud of their strength and resilience in a crisis, and they're going to talk about it. It is distasteful, perhaps, to compare it to New York, but that too can be blamed on our thick skin and black humour. This is our response. We don't weep in the street. We make a cup of tea and say something wry and tasteless.

This is life in our modern world. We are humans; we adapt. Doesn't mean that we have to like it or sit back and take it when people do awful things, doesn't mean that those responsible shouldn't pay for their crimes, but let's not act like this is some kind of new 21st-century phenomenon.

and 9/10 muslims in ANY part of the world wouldn't so much as shed a tear at our death

See, you could yell that into my ear for the next ten years and you still wouldn't be reaching me.

A lot of Americans hate Iraq/Iran/etc. because they're convinced that they hate us and would like to see us dead.

A lot of Iraqis/Iranians/etc. hate Americans because they're convinced that Americans hate them and would like to see them dead.

Think about that for a minute. Sounds like a self-perpetuating fallacy on both sides, doesn't it?

[wolf]

I strongly recommend actually reading The Koran.

It's not what we're all told it is, you know ... most of the Evil Rhetoric™ that we hear about is the result of exortations of individual clerics and sects.

The Book itself is pretty mild. Occasional smitings by God, relatively few exhortations to smite, and clear indications that there should be good relations with Jews and Christians.

Of course, I could have read the "watered down for better PR edition." I did buy it after 9-11.

This is horrible, horrible news. In addition to the dead, 700 people were injured. I am so glad Jag is okay. I beleive that DanaC lives in the English countryside somewhere, so she should be OK unless she chanced to visit London that day. My heart goes out to the people of the UK.

We cannot hate the people of any given faith just because of the actions of some extremist element. The families of innocent civilians killed in Iraq hate all Christians. The people of the Western World hate all Muslims. Such blanket hatred is only a recipe for more attacks and more deaths of innocents.

The mistake, if it is indeed a mistake, of the Bush administration is that they have not gone after Bin Laden. The conflict in Iraq has become a quagmire with no real purpose that I can see other than to secure our interests in oil supplies from the Mid East. In the process, we are only sowing more hatred for the West in the Muslim world. Terrorist attacks such as the one in London are the result.

I very much hope the authorities in the UK track down every last person who had responsibility for what happened in London today. The UK doesn't have the death penalty, so I hope they all end up in a maximum security prison for life with few amenities. I have no sympathy for ANY group which commits acts that lead to the deaths of children and women and male non combatants. People who carry out such atrocities should be dealt with no mercy.

[Queen of the Ryche]

wolf:

[mrnoodle]

self-perpetuating, obviously. Fallacy? Ask the people in the back half of that bus. For every muslim that publicly supports freedom and peace, there are 40,000 in the town square chanting "death to america"

while we sit in our comfy flats and houses and delude ourselves into thinking that they either don't really mean it, or are talking about someone else. we have become so numb from our pampered lifestyles that we don't recognize the real danger anymore. We lack vigilance. in a week, no one will even look over their shoulder while riding the tube. it's just too comforting to think that these events are random, rather than a systematic eradication of your values, your safety, and your freedom. If you want to know who is on which side, look at the faces in the crowd at the next 'death to whoever' rally. they're avid, fanatic, and glowing with pride over the actions of this "small but well organized" movement.

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by wolf

I strongly recommend actually reading The Koran.

It's not what we're all told it is, you know ... most of the Evil Rhetoric™ that we hear about is the result of exortations of individual clerics and sects.

The Book itself is pretty mild. Occasional smitings by God, relatively few exhortations to smite, and clear indications that there should be good relations with Jews and Christians.

Of course, I could have read the "watered down for better PR edition." I did buy it after 9-11.

I bought a copy when a girl I know was set to marry a muslim guy. We were trying to talk her out of it (he wanted her to wear a burka, didn't let her go out with friends, etc.), but she said the same thing -- "It's not what you think, read the book."

So I did. When I get home, I'll pull it out and read the passages again. But they were straightforward and left no room for doubt. And they commanded the followers of Mohammed to declare jihad on anyone who didn't follow Islam. Straight out.

[lookout123]

if that's true, where's the outcry from the muslim rank and file? where are the blogs, the radio and TV interviews, the books and magazine articles from muslims denouncing the killing?

i think i've been pretty clear about my own faith in the cellar. i'm a Christian. one of those "double belly button types" and whatever you want to call us. so keep that in mind here.

if christians don't support blowing up abortion clinics and shooting doctors where was the outcry from the christian rank and file? where are the blogs, the radio and TV interviews, the books and magazine articles from christians denouncing the killing?

we live in a society that is full of small c christians so when a "christian activist" kills a doctor, or taunts an abortion patient we look at them and say "look at that stupid, asshat, activist." and then we groan at the ribbing we will get from those that like to ridicule christianity on the basis of an individual's actions. when a dumbass tv evangelist announces that FL will be destroyed because of our decadent society's acceptance of homosexuality, we don't call the newspaper for an interview, or hold a protest to clarify what most christians think. we turn the channel, roll our eyes and wait for the idiot to die and the whole thing to blow over.

these people live in a society that is 99% muslim. when a "muslim extremist" blows something or someone up they say "look at that stupid, asshat, exremist." and then they grimace at the way the rest of the world will look at them the next day. when a cleric calls for "death to all ____" they... see where i am going here?

keep things in context.