Divorce

[limey]

Lots of good advice here. Look after yourself, eat properly, get a lawyer and don't badmouth the wife to the children ever, are the things I'd repeat.
Wishing you strength.

[Deuce]

I need something RIGHT NOW!

I don't know if I need advice, a kick in the head to go with the one to the balls, or what...

I love my wife.

She just called.

I was on the phone with the lawyer, who said "DO NOT ANSWER THE PHONE".

Shit.

I want to talk to her.

I want to reconcile with her. How can we get anything done if we can't talk?

And the longer I wait, what.... what if she wants to call it off? I guess I'll be pissing her off more, rejecting her, doing to her what I hated having done to me...

Seven times seventy. -- Charlie Brown.

Or. I dodged a bullet. I didn't get cornered into violating the restraining order. I didn't get maneuvered into saying something I'll regret. Or I missed the chance to talk to my son, who is with her. Or I missed the chance to hear some important news about one of the kids, hurt or something.

ggaaaaAAAAAHHHH!

Help!

[Uisge Beatha]

Hang tight, Deuce. I expect your lawyer has the right idea. Don't try to second guess him/her, otherwise there isn't much point in paying for legal services. I certainly think there would be at least one more call if your wife needed to inform you of an injury. This won't be easy, but you have to tough it out for now.

[yesman065]

If there is an emergency, she'll leave you a vm - and call you 20 more times in a row - you know that. Good luck buddy - hope today went well.

[Deuce]

Ok, had another great post, lost it... booooooo!

short answer, she called again, left a nice, concerned message. Says to call her.

Cooler heads have prevailed and I will.. stay in my box for now. I am nothing if not law abiding.

shit.

[Uisge Beatha]

We're proud of you, Deuce. I know it's tough, but you're doing well.

Oh, that lost post - I've been there, too. I've learned to start in a text editor for anything I think may get bigger than a couple of sentences. I copy and paste here when it's ready.

[DanaC]

Well done, Deuce, I get the sense you just crossed the first of a series of hurdles. Your lawyer is more thn likely advising you right on not picking up the phone.

Short anecdote: a friend of mine, Ash, went through a divorce. His wife's idea. They were doing it without lawyers at first (though actually, she had sought legal advice without telling him), and she showed great concern for his welfare during the first few weeks, phoned him to see he was okay, was really good about access and stuff.....by the time she'd persuaded him to agree to the most appalling terms of divorce and maintenance, we'd (his friends) begun to spot a pattern and advised him to get a solcitor to act on his behalf. She went nuts, started trying to mess with his access rights, said he was violent, a bully etc etc, the whole works. Fortunately his solicitor was able to get him through it all, with decent access to his boys and maintenance payments that took account of both their incomes.

I'm not saying your wife is anything like Ash's wife...but the point is, he still loved her and that meant when they were 'doing it without solicitors' he was not acting adversarially towards her; she meanwhile was acting in an adversarial way towards him, because they were in fact in an adversarial situation.

Your wife has indicated behaviourally (I think, but this is just my opinion) that she is treating this divorce in an entirely adversarial way. You are on opposing sides here. You must remember that. Don't be fooled by your feelings into dropping your defenses, because your opponent may use that against you.

It's shit and it hurts, and many of my closest friends have been through it. I was fortunate that when my relationship ended we were co-habiting, rather than married and had no kids to think about. It was still shit and hurtful and traumatic and that was with us being friendly about it. Having to deal with all this other stuff as well must be so hard.

Hang in there mate. Now is not the time to be friends. It's not the time to be enemies either...but it really isn't a time for being friends. Be selfish to the extent that you protect yourself. You are a father, and obviously you want to provide for your children, but that does not mean you deserve to come away with nothing. Protect yourself. Don't let her (with or without intent) persuade you to act against your own interests.

[Shawnee123]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Your wife has indicated behaviourally (I think, but this is just my opinion) that she is treating this divorce in an entirely adversarial way. You are on opposing sides here. You must remember that. Don't be fooled by your feelings into dropping your defenses, because your opponent may use that against you.

Very good point, DanaC.
Hang in there deuce. You will get through this and come out on the other side.

[Cicero]

If you don't believe me ask your attorney....She cannot "call off" a restraining order once it is granted to her. Now it's the states orders. She either really screwed up here- or she knows exactly what she's doing.
Right o- Dana and Shawnee......but i'm willing to take it a step further.
She shouldn't have played with restraining orders unless she was being threatened. Stay away from her. That is now permanently on your record and may effect future job prospects. Very destructive.
Once someone goes there don't come back ever. Either they aren't worth a damb or they really were in harm's way. In either case....take it seriously.
If you really were a threat, stay away until you get help.
If you weren't a threat....leave her stupid a**. Just for being a manipulative idiot that likes to play games with the lives of you and your kid(s).
Hang in there.
And remember: The first time- shame on you. The second time- shame on me.

[kgg]

First of all, none of us know her and everyone is turning her into a villian. She may well just want to talk. And frankly, we do not know anything about Deuce either except what he is posting. For all we know, they are faults on both sides. Let them work it out themselves.

[yesman065]

No, not at all. She may be a wonderful woman, but as one who has already dealt with this, he must protect himself first.

[Sundae]

Originally Posted by kgg

First of all, none of us know her and everyone is turning her into a villian. She may well just want to talk. And frankly, we do not know anything about Deuce either except what he is posting. For all we know, they are faults on both sides. Let them work it out themselves.

To start with I read this with the same thought in mind. I left my husband (we didn't have children) and therefore won't automatically condemn the person leaving the relationship, even if they break the other person's heart.

However I think we have enough evidence for the position taken by Dwellars. I don't think she has necessarily been made out to be the villain - she is simply the one who has involved the law and put Deuce in a situation where he has to fight. She has physically removed their son and set something in place to deny him access to their joint property. I don't get the feeling she is a woman running scared, rather a woman who wants a man removed from her life. Her follow-up phone call also suggests she does not perceive him as dangerous.

Even Cicero, who advocates "leaving her stupid ass" qualifies it by saying the advice only counts if the restraining order was unnecessary.

I'm sure Deuce's wife feels her actions are justified and her friends probably think he is very much the villain of the piece. After all, she has the law on her side. Personally I think it's sad that it had to escalate to this and she wasn't able to move into a friend or relative's house and continue with counselling before getting on the financially draining path of legal interference. Who loses out in the end? Who would the money usually be spent on? It's a truism that the children always suffer when a relationship breaks down.

[DanaC]

First of all, none of us know her and everyone is turning her into a villian. She may well just want to talk. And frankly, we do not know anything about Deuce either except what he is posting. For all we know, they are faults on both sides. Let them work it out themselves.

A) This isn't about her being a villain, this is about her being one party in a legal battle. Deuce is the other party.
B) We do not know her, and we only know what Deuce has posted, but the fact is Deuce has posted and we, the Cellar community have responded with our best intentioned advice.
C) Divorce is messy. Even the most civilised and rational people can become nasty when future happiness, finances, and access to the children are at stake.
D) If one party has engaged legal assistance, the other party can only effectively protect themselves by doing the same (unless they have the experience, knowledge and resources to represent themselves effectively....most people in the midst of an emotionally tumultuous divorce do not qualify for that).
E) See B. Deuce is a member of our community, his wife is not. Therefore our advice is to Deuce. This doesn't mean we wish his wife ill, or seek to demonize her....we simply want this to go as smoothly as possible for Deuce and are offering him advice in good conscience. Most of the people posting have either been through a similar situation, or have been there for friends who have.

The advice I have offered is the same advice I gave my friend when he went though his divorce. I gave similar advice to another friend whose husband was divorcing her and who was doing an excellent job of assassinating her character and making her look like an unfit mother, whilst to her face he appeared quite reasonable. I repeat....divorce is nasty. People do things and act in ways they would never do under any other circumstances. Doesn't make 'em bad people, does make them potentially dangerous to the wellbeing and future happiness of the person they are divorcing.

[kgg]

You are right. Divorce is nasty. Did anyone here stop to think that perhaps her intentions are to just talk? Almost everyone that has supported Deuce has jumped to conclusions that say she's the bad one. I don't think either one is bad. I think they are in a tough spot.

The advise I see is go after her Deuce. I could be wrong. I think the support he is receiving is good because everyone needs a support group when something like this happens. But the advise could be adding contempt where there may not otherwise be any. They should both be given the benefit of fairness. Just because she isn't a member of the Cellar Community doesn't mean we should be telling him to "pack her bags and put them at the end of the driveway". We also don't know that she is bashing him. I'm just playing devil's advocate. I hope that things work out well for the both of them.

[DanaC]

You are right. Divorce is nasty. Did anyone here stop to think that perhaps her intentions are to just talk? Almost everyone that has supported Deuce has jumped to conclusions that say she's the bad one. I don't think either one is bad. I think they are in a tough spot.

This is not about good and bad. Put those concepts out of your head now, if you want to be of any use whatsoever in advising anybody in this situation. Divorce involves one of the most complicated emotional landscapes anyone is ever likely to find themselves wandering around in. This is not about how good or bad Deuce's wife is, it's about him engaging in a necessary act of self-preservation.

The advise I see is go after her Deuce. I could be wrong.

What really? That is your advice? Are you sure about that? Against his lawyer's advice, contrary to the experience of the vast majority of divorcees, contrary to the evidence of where she is already at in this process? Contrary to the entire trend of events as brought to the Cellar by Deuce intermittently over many weeks?

That is your advice to a man who is having to hold it together, clearly still loves the woman and is therefore in the extremely vulnerable position of having to defend himself against potential economic attack, and the possible limitations of access to his children, whilst his reputation is (if her accusations are untrue) besmirched to the point of permanently scarring his record.

Friend, I do not wish to sound arrogant, and I do not dismiss the possibility that she just wants to talk...but you are giving very bad advice. Even if she does truly, want to talk. It has been made very clear by her actions that this is happening. To 'go after her' at this point would be a dangerous denial of what is happening.

There will likely come a time, in the very near future, when enough has been nailed down that the lawyers will advise that some contact is made. But there are stages to go through. The stakes are high enough, why make it any harder on himself? Right now, when it's about as raw as it is ever going to get, let a third party deal with it.