Patriot Act Extension

[dar512]

Originally Posted by Redux

The other issue for me with term limits is loosing that expertise that takes more than 10-12 years to establish. (Don't you know more about your field of expertise after 20 years as opposed to 10-12 years?)

If it takes 10-12 years for these guys to learn their jobs, we're electing the wrong guys.

Originally Posted by dar512

If it takes 10-12 years for these guys to learn their jobs, we're electing the wrong guys.

It absolutely takes years to develop that highest level of expertise and know all of the ins and outs of the executive branch that Congress is charged to oversee. It also takes time to build up credibility within the institution so that one can take leadership roles on important legislative issues of interest to constituents back home and the nation as a whole.

And it makes much more sense to me to keep that expertise around (if that is the choice of the voters of that district/state) rather than building that expertise from scratch every election or even every 10-12 years.

Thats not to say that I dont want to see more turnover in Congress. New blood adds new perspectives, and that is always good for any institution. But not though wholesale turnover. IMO, that is not the most productive way to run any large institution.

And I simply dont want to limit one's choice to keep their current representation, but would rather expand choices through comprehensive campaign finance reform to make it easier to challenge incumbents on a more level playing field.

Term limits in a nutshell to me:

You can work here for 10-12 years and become an expert on the most important issues to your constituents as well as foreign affairs/national security and the development of national policies affecting environment/financial services/agriculture/intergovernmental relations, etc.

Then...out you go!

Repeat and rinse.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

You wanna fix THAT broken system, but...

Bwaaaa haaaaa!

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Redux

It absolutely takes years to develop that highest level of expertise and know all of the ins and outs of the executive branch that Congress is charged to oversee.

So can we assume you would also be in favor of eliminating Presidential term limits?

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

So can we assume you would also be in favor of eliminating Presidential term limits?

Absolutely.

You dont take away the fundamental choice of the people to elect their chosen representatives, which is why the framers did not include term limits in the Constitution.

If the system is "broken", you dont fundamentally change what is at the very core of the system, you fix it in a manner that provides greater choice and greater safeguards to ensure that those elected don't abuse the office.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Redux

It absolutely takes years to develop that highest level of expertise and know all of the ins and outs of the executive branch that Congress is charged to oversee. It also takes time to build up credibility within the institution so that one can take leadership roles on important legislative issues of interest to constituents back home and the nation as a whole.

What expertise... who to go to, for getting around the rules and limits we want them to work within? Who owes them favors to support their pet pork projects? Which closets hold the skeletons? Which staffers really are in charge of the elected rep's office(vote)?

Seems to me that's anti-transparency.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

What expertise... who to go to, for getting around the rules and limits we want them to work within? Who owes them favors to support their pet pork projects? Which closets hold the skeletons? Which staffers really are in charge of the elected rep's office(vote)?

Seems to me that's anti-transparency.

Around and around we go, huh?

From a pratical perspective, I dont want the oversight of the largest public institution in the world to be in the hands of 545 men and women, NONE OF WHOM has more than 10-12 years of experience on the job. I think that is crazy!

I want a high level of public policy experience on issues across the board and I want continuity in the legislative process.

I understand the entrenched problems that need to be addressed and I am not convinced that term limits would address them more effectively than more comprehensive campaign finance and lobbying reform with strong enforcement penalities.

From a philosphical perspective, I do not believe in limiting choice...either for the people to vote for any qualified candidate or elected offiicals being told how long then can serve.

I support Constitutional amendments that extend the rights of the people (19th amendment - women's right to vote, 26th amendment - lowering voting age to 18)

I do not support Constitutional amendments that limit or restrict any existing rights of the people.

But now I am just repeating myself.

If a term limit amendment is introduced, many here will obviously support it, I will oppose it, and you will probably be on the side with greater public support.

But it aint gonna happen anytime soon.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Redux

Absolutely.

You dont take away the fundamental choice of the people to elect their chosen representatives, which is why the framers did not include term limits in the Constitution.

If the system is "broken", you dont fundamentally change what is at the very core of the system, you fix it in a manner that provides greater choice and greater safeguards to ensure that those elected don't abuse the office.

Please detail which Presidents you felt were just beginning to get the hang of things by the end of their second term, and would have really done some great things if they'd been allowed a third. Also, were there any Presidents who were fundamentally incompetent and would never have gotten better at the job no matter how long they were in it?


You don't want Congress to be run by people with no experience, yet you have supreme faith in the average experience-less person to choose the best guy, every time?

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Please detail which Presidents you felt were just beginning to get the hang of things by the end of their second term, and would have really done some great things if they'd been allowed a third. Also, were there any Presidents who were fundamentally incompetent and would never have gotten better at the job no matter how long they were in it?

It is not about any individual president or member of Congress

The fundamental issue is limiting the choice of the people to elect their representatives.

And, not loosing (throwing out) valuable expertise across the policy perspective and continuity in the legislative process....what might be characterized as efficiency....simply because it might provide greater transparency.

You don't want Congress to be run by people with no experience, yet you have supreme faith in the average experience-less person to choose the best guy, every time?

I dont think i ever expressed supreme faith in the average person choose the best guy. There is certainly no guarantee that massive turn-over every election would result in better guys.

I believe the Constitution had it right the first time...with no term limits.

[TheMercenary]

Those are shallow arguments against term limits.

[depmats]

The only way you can not support term limits is if you actually believe these men and women are working for our benefit rather than theirs. Who believes that? Show of hands please?

[TGRR]

Originally Posted by depmats

The only way you can not support term limits is if you actually believe these men and women are working for our benefit rather than theirs. Who believes that? Show of hands please?

False dilemma. I can think of at least two other reasons why someone might not support term limits.

[Idemosaka]

Originally Posted by lookout123

Step 1: Electrocute all lobbyists
Step 2: Bring on the term limits
Step 3: Electrocute all new lobbyists

Not all lobbyists are bad.

As far as term limits, somewhat off-topic, but I am now curious as to how that revolutionary group in the Chiapas is doing. IIRC, all public officials were supposed to have something like week-long term limits.

[TGRR]

Originally Posted by Idemosaka

Not all lobbyists are bad.

Yes, but why take chances?