God? Faith?

[lookout123]

Blind faith is believing in evolution as a theory of origin...

*nitpicking* it isn't blind faith if they have looked at the info and have come to that conclusion based on the available info.

2 people can look at the same info, come up with 2 different conclusions without relying on blind faith. blind faith is the creationist who believes the way they do because their mom told them so and also the evolutionist who believes that way because his science teacher told him so...

*nitpicking concluded*

[LabRat]

Originally Posted by LabRat

Here's problem #1 with the fairy scenario...She forgot to show me the outcomes, and since I am omnipotent I would already KNOW the outcomes...If I was an all loving spouse, saying that I would love you no matter what, why would I send to to eternal damnation if you end up choosing to divorce me (which i knew you were going to do)? ... If God isn't vengeful or jealous, and is supposed to love us no matter what, why send us to hell if we choose not to believe in him/break his rules?

*LR is waiting patiently for a response...*

One problem of taking the bible for word for word truth is that it's been translated multiple times, and thusly lots of things have been slightly changed...creating potentially new meanings for different passages...

Quote Brianna: "It's a mystery locked in a cunundrum wrapped in an enigma."
confounded by human inaccuracy

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by LabRat

Here's problem #1 with the fairy scenario...She forgot to show me the outcomes, and since I am omnipotent I would already KNOW that if I chose free will, the little bastard would cheat on me, leave his underwear on the floor 12 inches from the laundry basket, and gamble our life savings away. If I was an all loving spouse, saying that I would love you no matter what, why would I send to to eternal damnation if you end up choosing to divorce me (which i knew you were going to do)? (merging the 2 scenarios) Sounds a bit vengeful to me. If God isn't vengeful or jealous, and is supposed to love us no matter what, why send us to hell if we choose not to believe in him/break his rules? my head is starting to hurt

Got to add some to your scenario...

If your spouse had free will, and chose to do all that bad stuff and divorce you, he would be selecting his own outcome, right? What if you had a child who was so distraught over the spouse's bad decision that he offered to pay the penalty himself, and bring the spouse back into the right relationship with you? If the spouse accepts this gift, he gets back into the family and the matter is never spoken of again.

Doesn't sound vengeful or jealous to me.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by LabRat

If God isn't vengeful or jealous, and is supposed to love us no matter what, why send us to hell if we choose not to believe in him/break his rules?

If you have a child, you know that being a parent ain't easy. You have rules. They are there not to get your kids in trouble, but to protect them. You tell them "these are the rules and this is what happens if you break the rules". If they then choose to break the rules, willfully and defiantly, just because they don't feel like following them, is it wrong to be consistant and stick to the rules and consequences?

Originally Posted by LabRat

One problem of taking the bible for word for word truth is that it's been translated multiple times, and thusly lots of things have been slightly changed...creating potentially new meanings for different passages...

Man, if you only knew how many times I hear this argument....Agreed, translating from one language to another (and in some cases two languages into another) is ALWAYS difficult.

As far as accuracy, we have MULTIPLE surviving copies of all of the books in the bible. Don't you think they've been checked and rechecked against each other for accuracy? When there is a problem with translation, we are given notes in the text to compare the word or phrase against another portion of text, sometimes in a different book. That's what those little notations are.

Now accuracy and interpretation are two different things. That's why there are so many different bible interpretations. KJV, NASB, NIV, etc... Just because they have different words, generally, the verses mean the same thing.



Edit: Hell isn't all fire and brimstone. Hell is the eternal absence of God.

[OnyxCougar]

Let me ask this of the non-religious: What is the main obstacle in your personal opinion that prevents you from believing in a God? (Not just the Judeo-Christian-Muslim god, any god).

For the religious but not Judeo-Christian-Muslim variety, why do you believe in the God(s)/Goddess(es) you do?

[lookout123]

Sorry LR - i've been trying to decide how i really want to respond. I can't respond with hard facts, as we all know. this is about faith. a choice. i realize that anyone who doesn't believe in A god will dismiss what i say, look for wholes in it, and some will choose to pick at my intelligence for believing in something they find ridiculous. I am not a theologian. I am answering some questions with the beliefs that are part of my personal faith. for those reason's i generally try to stay away from these discussions. i don't find much value in arguing over articles of faith. but...

Here's problem #1 with the fairy scenario...She forgot to show me the outcomes, and since I am omnipotent I would already KNOW that if I chose free will, the little bastard would cheat on me, leave his underwear on the floor 12 inches from the laundry basket, and gamble our life savings away.

it is an analogy, certainly not perfect... but before you get married you absolutely do know that your soon to be spouse will fail you. you may not know whether or not they will cheat, but you do know it is a possibility. you know for a fact that they will at some point lie, be unkind, be a slob, etc... you know this very well, but you probably choose to leave the choice to love you or not love you in his hands. that really isn't that different than what God has done with us. He knows we will fail him in some ways. He wants us to love and honor him. He wants the best for us. He allows us to make the choice to follow Him or follow our own path.

If I was an all loving spouse, saying that I would love you no matter what, why would I send to to eternal damnation if you end up choosing to divorce me (which i knew you were going to do)?

if your spouse has the choice to love you and honor you, but chooses to reject you - would you still welcome him with open arms? would you keep an open shelf in the closet for his things? would he still have access to your bed? If a person chooses to reject God throughout their life, why would we expect God to welcome them into His eternal kingdom - a kingdom that the individual has rejected?

Sounds a bit vengeful to me. If God isn't vengeful or jealous, and is supposed to love us no matter what, why send us to hell if we choose not to believe in him/break his rules?

I don't feel it is vengeful, but i can understand your feeling on the issue. I do believe that God does love us all unconditionally. I believe that it troubles Him when we reject Him. "not a sparrow falls, without a tear from the One who made and put us here..." and all that. But He has given us the choice to accept Him and His gift to us, or reject Him and choose our own path.

as far as the "break his rules" part - We all break his rules. The most dedicated believer will sin. period. there isn't a measure of # of good deeds vs. # of bad deeds to get into heaven. it is an act of faith to 1) believe in God (a higher power than myself), 2) Believe that his Son died and rose again (to pay the wages of my sin), and 3) to accept this gift of redemption (acknowledge that I cannot buy or earn my way into His grace).

those are the requirements laid down in the New Testament. If you reject the Bible than none of this really matters to you. We as individuals have the freedom to accept these things through faith and believe them to be true - always knowing that we may be proven wrong in the end. We also have the freedom to choose our own path with the knowledge that we may be wrong in the end.

Again - this isn't meant to convince anyone of anything. I am not the answer man. This is my faith.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Let me ask this of the non-religious: What is the main obstacle in your personal opinion that prevents you from believing in a God? (Not just the Judeo-Christian god, any god).

Because there is no void in my life that can't be filled either with reason or an ability to understand that there are things out there that are beyond my control.

I don't need the hollow comfort of an invisible, intangible, unknowable, inscrutable being whose only context is derived by taking the word of someone who has the same frame of referrence as I do, but claims to be able to access the same invisible, intangible, unknowable, inscrutable being.

[smoothmoniker]

just a little shameless thread pimping, but onyx, you may want to track this thread about having good reasons for believing things.

[lookout123]

What in your opinion, is the most important message in the Bible?

If God didn't create the heavens and the earth, then it was not necessary for Jesus to die and resurrect.

I avoid the creation/evolution threads because they don't hold a lot of interest for me. I accept the Bible as the word of God. I believe in an "all or nothing faith". my faith is not a smorgasbord. BUT - OC why does it matter if the world was created in 6 literal days? does your faith rest on the idea that God snapped his fingers and everything instantly appeared? creationism and darwinian development don't have to be mutually exclusive. why argue the "how" of it? If you believe that God brought something from nothing, can you be open to the idea that it did happen slowly, a process rather than an event? survival of the fittest and the effect it has upon different species is self evident - does that necessarily negate your faith in a Creator God?

the more you argue something about something that cannot be proven the less people are willing to listen to the truly important message of the Bible - The forgiveness availabe through Jesus Christ. That message is not dependent upon our understanding of the creation process.

I feel the same way when i hear people argue NO/Pre/Mid/Post tribulation rapture. Does it matter on anything other than an academic level? these are distractions from the one truly important message in the Bible forgiveness for disobedience.

And TS - do you really believe that one must have a noticeable void in one's life to seek God? i have always had "perfect" vision, so i never questioned my eyes. (yes, i choose to deny the aging process). i was at the eye dr's one day and decided to check my eyes out - not really thinking there were any issues. it turns out that i do need glasses for reading. i didn't realize i had a need until i had something to meet the unknown need right in front of my eyes. i can now see better than ever because of the glasses i didn't know i needed.

just a thought.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by lookout123

And TS - do you really believe that one must have a noticeable void in one's life to seek God? i have always had "perfect" vision, so i never questioned my eyes. (yes, i choose to deny the aging process). i was at the eye dr's one day and decided to check my eyes out - not really thinking there were any issues. it turns out that i do need glasses for reading. i didn't realize i had a need until i had something to meet the unknown need right in front of my eyes. i can now see better than ever because of the glasses i didn't know i needed.

just a thought.

Not a bad thought except for the fact that there is nothing to compare my vision against. There is no way to say that God is lacking in my life if Vishnu is the real deal. There is no way to say that I am missing Odin in my life if Cthulhu is the real deal.

What is the real deal?

And yes, I believe that people use religion/faith to fill a void in their lives even if they don't realize it. Otherwise what's the point?

Well, there's that whole ethnic cleansing thing but that's a whole other debate.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

In fact, it's a distraction and a barrier to sharing the message of Christ - which is the central theme of our faith

The message of Christ is lost if you can't explain who He is or why He is essential. To explain that, you have to go back to the beginning.

The only book that has all the information you need to this end is the Bible. The bible has to be truthworthy in ALL of it's sections to be trustworthy in ANY of it's sections. Therefore, it has to be trustworthy from the first words.

I used to have a real big problem with the bible as a trustworthy document. In fact, it was the biggest reason why I wasn't a Christian. I was fully on the side of evolution and then I became a witch. I participated in ceremonies and came to know a creator God and I have seen spells, energies, and divination work firsthand.

Evolution went out the window. At that point I realized that we are not here by some lucky astronomical random chance, but rather, this universe was purposefully created and intelligently designed, and forces within that design can be manipulated, if you know how. Each person makes their own choices and must be responsible for the consequences of that choice.

I still believe that.

However, my study of the bible (including it's veracity) and other sources, along with my intellect, have shown me that there is compatibility with my beliefs as a witch and Christian beliefs, and harmony with what I have seen and experienced firsthand and those documents.

I guess you can call me a Christian Witch. And before anyone pulls out that old saying, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" in Exodus 22:17, makesofha the Hebrew word used, is more accurately translated as "practitioner of sorcery", which is someone who is performing EVIL rituals to pagan gods (Baal, etc). Many Wiccans now use the term "Warlock" to mean someone who practices the dark arts. So IMO, the passage is more correctly translated as "Do not tolerate an evil sorceress to remain among you." (Yes, I have done my homework, teacher.)

Right now I'm looking into the Messianic Prophesies and the likelihood of Jesus being the Messiah, versus what the Jews believe. It gets kind of confusing, but I want to look at all the evidence and make my own decision.

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Because there is no void in my life that can't be filled either with reason or an ability to understand that there are things out there that are beyond my control.

The needs of the spirit can't be filled with reason. Not only is pure reason a cold companion, it's faulty when it comes to things related to the soul. You're saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, that when you sense a void in your life, you either try to work it out intellectually, or write it off as a "shit happens" moment. That's not filling anything, that's just analysis.

I don't need the hollow comfort of an invisible, intangible, unknowable, inscrutable being whose only context is derived by taking the word of someone who has the same frame of referrence as I do, but claims to be able to access the same invisible, intangible, unknowable, inscrutable being.

No one needs hollow comfort, but everyone searches for real peace. You shouldn't take anyone's word about anything spiritual - it's all there for you to find yourself. It would be nice if you could look at a Christian and see a real difference in their life, and have the truth become immediately apparent, but the fact is we aren't very good at being righteous. So just spend some time reflecting, without being defensive or running through all the sins of "the church" over the years, or all the times someone calling themselves Christian did something horrible.

At some point you realize some voids can't be filled with reason, and the only option left is to ask God to explain why. The trick is not to ignore the answer, which usually conflicts with what we want to hear ("Everything's going to be alright, just keep doing what you're doing.")

[/ramble]

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

The message of Christ is lost if you can't explain who He is or why He is essential. To explain that, you have to go back to the beginning.

Sheesh, I can't even post before 5 other people get in front of me. lol

Yes, I agree. But while we spend infinite amounts of time reflecting on the nature of hydrogen and oxygen and all the different ways they can be combined, there's water that needs bailing.

Right now I'm looking into the Messianic Prophesies and the likelihood of Jesus being the Messiah, versus what the Jews believe. It gets kind of confusing, but I want to look at all the evidence and make my own decision.

Jesus said he was him. That makes him either a liar, a nut, or the real deal.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by lookout123

BUT - OC why does it matter if the world was created in 6 literal days?

It matters because God said he did it in 6 literal days.

I can choose to believe God did it just like He said He did in the Bible
or
I can choose to believe God lied to me and everyone else and I can't trust the Bible for anything.


It's an all or nothing proposition.

I choose the former.

creationism and darwinian development don't have to be mutually exclusive.

I can choose to believe God did it just like He said He did in the Bible
or
I can choose to believe men who have no faith in my God, who don't believe he even exists, and who have actively worked to destroy faith in Him.

why argue the "how" of it?

Because God said it happened one way. I have to take a stand and say "I believe God did it the way he says he did" or I have to stand and say "There is no God." or worse, "God is a liar."

Either God is a liar or he's not. If he's not, then the world was created in 6 literal days. If he is, then he is irrelevant and I can't believe any of it.

If you believe that God brought something from nothing, can you be open to the idea that it did happen slowly, a process rather than an event? survival of the fittest and the effect it has upon different species is self evident - does that necessarily negate your faith in a Creator God?

Not at all. Mutations and speciation happens. It's observable science. The question was creation in 6 literal days. Obviously the world today is not as it was then.

the more you argue something about something that cannot be proven the less people are willing to listen to the truly important message of the Bible - The forgiveness availabe through Jesus Christ. That message is not dependent upon our understanding of the creation process.

But that message IS dependant on it! If someone doesn't know why they need forgiveness, then Christ's redemption is meaningless. So you have to establish what sin is in order to explain forgiveness. To explain sin, you have to explain who the sin is against and WHY it's sin. That can only be done by explaining that God created this world. So to explain to someone what a gift Jesus gave, you HAVE to explain WHY he gave it. Creation is crucial to that understanding.

I feel the same way when i hear people argue NO/Pre/Mid/Post tribulation rapture. Does it matter on anything other than an academic level? these are distractions from the one truly important message in the Bible forgiveness for disobedience.

I don't think Revelationary discussion has as much importance as creation does to the meaning of Christ's sacrifice.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

The needs of the spirit can't be filled with reason. Not only is pure reason a cold companion, it's faulty when it comes to things related to the soul. You're saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, that when you sense a void in your life, you either try to work it out intellectually, or write it off as a "shit happens" moment. That's not filling anything, that's just analysis.

1) Why do you presume that there is a spiritual component the needs to be filled?

2) Not everything that occurs in our lives has a reason based on reason. Causality may exist but we may not be able to see it. Why make something up, wrap it in pretty trappings and call it truth if there may just be not other reason than causality?

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

No one needs hollow comfort, but everyone searches for real peace. You shouldn't take anyone's word about anything spiritual - it's all there for you to find yourself. It would be nice if you could look at a Christian and see a real difference in their life, and have the truth become immediately apparent, but the fact is we aren't very good at being righteous. So just spend some time reflecting, without being defensive or running through all the sins of "the church" over the years, or all the times someone calling themselves Christian did something horrible.

A made up story is still just a made up story, whether it comes from a mad arab, or some guy staring at his belly button. Either one may just be a different face of the same reality, but that still presumes the existence of some spiritual something.

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

At some point you realize some voids can't be filled with reason, and the only option left is to ask God to explain why. The trick is not to ignore the answer, which usually conflicts with what we want to hear ("Everything's going to be alright, just keep doing what you're doing.")

[/ramble]

Why ask why if there is no certainty as to whom to ask?