The absurdity of Donald Trump - Page 37

henry quirk · 01-25-2019, 11:54 AM

"you can whittle him down to basically a good government type."

I disagree.

addendum: on second thought, you're right, he is a 'good government type'. It's simply that his notion of 'good government' (large, centralized, and in charge) conflicts with my notion of 'good government' (minimal, dispersed, and firmly under heel).

#

"the right wingers blew it by over-playing their hand."

As I see it: both sides (of the coin) have overplayed their hand (and continue to).

henry quirk · 01-25-2019, 11:59 AM

"I'm trying to understand your position on those things"

Yeah, I'm a kind of minarchist, Bruce. I've written about it, debated about it (with Happy Monkey, for one) several times, in-forum.

Where were you?

henry quirk · 01-25-2019, 12:03 PM

"Reality is 'extremists verses moderates'"

No, reality is 'the mob (and its directors)' vs 'the one (and his conscience)'.

Griff · 01-25-2019, 12:23 PM

At UT:

Sure it's all about perception. AOC exists in part because Paul Ryan's work cutting taxes and ballooning deficits threatens all Federal spending including Social Security and Medicaid, but also because the Democrats took working people for granted. For years the political center in the US would have looked middle right from a European perspective. Center right (Third Way) Democrats became a force pushing solid middle right market liberalism raising the poor in much of the world but leaving American trade unionists and the working poor unrepresented. The GOP finds itself in a bind for voters and finds discontented rust belt workers, farmers, social conservatives, and pro-lifers an easy target. They turn up the nationalism, blame environmentalism to get farm votes, blame public education, and act like they're reconsidering their commitment to free trade. It's less deceptive than it all looks. The GOP won the market liberalism argument a long time ago but when the Democrats adopted their position they had no where to go. It's kind of a mad scramble. The elite in the Democratic Party seem to have the economic center right and social left covered. AOC and company don't have the same economic agenda and and the fear triggered by Ryan etc... feeds a lot of the Democrat electorate so she is carving out a space within the party.

That's quite a word salad. I'm not sure it makes any sense or if my thinking makes any sense.

Flint · 01-25-2019, 12:31 PM

We've moved too far right for too long, and when someone says they're gonna push back left, voters like it because that's what people want. The Democrats always could have gotten elected by doing that, but they don't actually want to move left unless it's in response to a specific soundbyte.

henry quirk · 01-25-2019, 12:40 PM

"That's quite a word salad. I'm not sure it makes any sense or if my thinking makes any sense."

It makes sense, but you're overthinkin' it.

It really is simple: the fundamental schism has always been between those who would direct (along with those who want direction) and those who self-direct (and resent bein' told what to do).

You can label the schism a lot of ways...

many vs one

we vs i

communitarian vs libertarian

tribe vs solitary

...but labels aside, it's about folks who think they know what's best for everyone vs folks who say 'no, you don't, so leave me be'.

henry quirk · 01-25-2019, 12:47 PM

"We've moved too far right for too long, and when someone says they're gonna push back left, voters like it because that's what people want. The Democrats always could have gotten elected by doing that, but they don't actually want to move left unless it's in response to a specific soundbyte."

Yeah, no, that ain't close at all.

The U.S. has become communitarian (a state encompassing most of the repub and dem parties [the right & left], a state even infecting the libertarian party [a group of folks who ought to know better]).

Flint · 01-25-2019, 01:09 PM

I'd hope we could have a "country" that includes the left and the right.

henry quirk · 01-25-2019, 01:16 PM

...instead of the zoo of undisciplined animals we have now.

Flint · 01-25-2019, 01:36 PM

Nobody in wheelchairs, though, right?

henry quirk · 01-25-2019, 03:05 PM

...absolutely they're my kinda people.

xoxoxoBruce · 01-25-2019, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by henry quirk

"I'm trying to understand your position on those things"

Yeah, I'm a kind of minarchist, Bruce. I've written about it, debated about it (with Happy Monkey, for one) several times, in-forum.

Where were you?

I was in the peanut gallery watching a reasonable discussion of opposing views, unlike you and tw throwing Molotov cocktails.
They only way to do the things I mentioned is on a federal level. There are many others that can only be done efficiently on a federal level.

Yeah yeah I know, efficient doesn't come to mind when thinking about federal projects but neither does the state or local projects. There's politics, kick backs, and greed involved... always. It adds to the cost but the results are still worth it for the most part. And those vices could be at least reduced if the voters actively held the politicians accountable.

OK, maybe it's a pipe dream that fat and happy citizens would actually get involved, but there's no question it can/would work if people would stop letting other people run the show.

henry quirk · 01-25-2019, 03:19 PM

Bruce,

As I say: I'm an advocate for the 'night watchman' model.

xoxoxoBruce · 01-25-2019, 03:27 PM

OK, just wanted it clarified for my little pumpkin head.

Undertoad · 01-25-2019, 07:21 PM

Quote:

I'm not sure it makes any sense or if my thinking makes any sense.

It did, and thanks!

01-25-2019, 11:54 AM	#541
henry quirk maskless: yesterday, today, tomorrow Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,162	"you can whittle him down to basically a good government type." I disagree. addendum: on second thought, you're right, he is a 'good government type'. It's simply that his notion of 'good government' (large, centralized, and in charge) conflicts with my notion of 'good government' (minimal, dispersed, and firmly under heel). # "the right wingers blew it by over-playing their hand." As I see it: both sides (of the coin) have overplayed their hand (and continue to). Last edited by henry quirk; 01-25-2019 at 12:31 PM.

01-25-2019, 12:23 PM	#544
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	At UT: Sure it's all about perception. AOC exists in part because Paul Ryan's work cutting taxes and ballooning deficits threatens all Federal spending including Social Security and Medicaid, but also because the Democrats took working people for granted. For years the political center in the US would have looked middle right from a European perspective. Center right (Third Way) Democrats became a force pushing solid middle right market liberalism raising the poor in much of the world but leaving American trade unionists and the working poor unrepresented. The GOP finds itself in a bind for voters and finds discontented rust belt workers, farmers, social conservatives, and pro-lifers an easy target. They turn up the nationalism, blame environmentalism to get farm votes, blame public education, and act like they're reconsidering their commitment to free trade. It's less deceptive than it all looks. The GOP won the market liberalism argument a long time ago but when the Democrats adopted their position they had no where to go. It's kind of a mad scramble. The elite in the Democratic Party seem to have the economic center right and social left covered. AOC and company don't have the same economic agenda and and the fear triggered by Ryan etc... feeds a lot of the Democrat electorate so she is carving out a space within the party. That's quite a word salad. I'm not sure it makes any sense or if my thinking makes any sense. __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

01-25-2019, 12:31 PM	#545
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	We've moved too far right for too long, and when someone says they're gonna push back left, voters like it because that's what people want. The Democrats always could have gotten elected by doing that, but they don't actually want to move left unless it's in response to a specific soundbyte. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

01-25-2019, 01:09 PM	#548
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	I'd hope we could have a "country" that includes the left and the right. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

01-25-2019, 01:16 PM	#549
henry quirk maskless: yesterday, today, tomorrow Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,162	I'd hope we could have a country of self-directing, self-responsible, human beings... ...instead of the zoo of undisciplined animals we have now.

01-25-2019, 11:59 AM	#542
henry quirk maskless: yesterday, today, tomorrow Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,162	"I'm trying to understand your position on those things" Yeah, I'm a kind of minarchist, Bruce. I've written about it, debated about it (with Happy Monkey, for one) several times, in-forum. Where were you?

01-25-2019, 12:03 PM	#543
henry quirk maskless: yesterday, today, tomorrow Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,162	"Reality is 'extremists verses moderates'" No, reality is 'the mob (and its directors)' vs 'the one (and his conscience)'.

01-25-2019, 12:40 PM	#546
henry quirk maskless: yesterday, today, tomorrow Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,162	"That's quite a word salad. I'm not sure it makes any sense or if my thinking makes any sense." It makes sense, but you're overthinkin' it. It really is simple: the fundamental schism has always been between those who would direct (along with those who want direction) and those who self-direct (and resent bein' told what to do). You can label the schism a lot of ways... many vs one we vs i communitarian vs libertarian tribe vs solitary ...but labels aside, it's about folks who think they know what's best for everyone vs folks who say 'no, you don't, so leave me be'.

01-25-2019, 12:47 PM	#547
henry quirk maskless: yesterday, today, tomorrow Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,162	"We've moved too far right for too long, and when someone says they're gonna push back left, voters like it because that's what people want. The Democrats always could have gotten elected by doing that, but they don't actually want to move left unless it's in response to a specific soundbyte." Yeah, no, that ain't close at all. The U.S. has become communitarian (a state encompassing most of the repub and dem parties [the right & left], a state even infecting the libertarian party [a group of folks who ought to know better]).

01-25-2019, 01:36 PM	#550
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Nobody in wheelchairs, though, right? __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

01-25-2019, 03:05 PM	#551
henry quirk maskless: yesterday, today, tomorrow Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,162	if those in wheelchairs (or Daleks) are self-directing and -responsible then... ...absolutely they're my kinda people.

01-25-2019, 03:19 PM	#553
henry quirk maskless: yesterday, today, tomorrow Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,162	Bruce, As I say: I'm an advocate for the 'night watchman' model.

01-25-2019, 03:27 PM	#554
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	OK, just wanted it clarified for my little pumpkin head. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

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