There are no illegal immigrants in America - Page 8

Clodfobble · 12-31-2007, 02:03 PM

"If they're not fighting alongside me, then they are by definition not innocent." - Magic 8-ball, future-quoting Radar

regular.joe · 12-31-2007, 02:19 PM

I suppose the really awesome thing is that Radar is not in jail, indefinitely right now, for supposing such a thing as armed overthrow of the government. Freedom of speech is a pretty cool thing.

Everyone who works for the government is not a bad guy. Most of the bad guys in government are elected. Makes me think. Doesn't mean we should shut down democracy.
The police are not the bad guys. Yea, some of em are card carrying human beings subject to the same whims and selfish actions as anyone else on earth. Doesn't mean we should shut down the police.

Selfless service is hard to find. The people immersed in selfless service aren't advertising. They are being selfless. for that reason, we see more of the bad then we do the good. Doesn't mean it's time to throw the baby out with the bath water.

In defense of the people we don't know who are toiling away doing their damnedest to protect and defend our society. Shortly after 9/11 there was a collective gasp, as many people in our nation asked "How did we allow this to happen?". "Who's responsible, who wasn't on watch???". Now, the same people are trying to get in the way of our defense. Sheesh, you can't have it both ways.

If you don't like something about the laws, and government in the U.S. then get involved in the democracy we have and work to get it changed. If the you fail in your attempt, then live with it. It's a democracy. Not getting your way here, and taking up arms over the issue makes you just another petty dictator who wants his way. Waaaaaa! Now give me my cake!! Childish, immature, and selfish, unable to look beyond yourself...only wanting what seems to be the easy way out. Unable to accept the reality of the community in which you live.

Undertoad · 12-31-2007, 02:49 PM

They held Jose Padilla, so let's go bomb the Department of Energy! Those fuckers are stealing all my cellophane wrappers!

The country has gone to total shit since 1950! Well except that it hasn't, in any memorable way. When you step back and take a look, you may notice that things are really going quite well. Half our money is taxed away? I guess that's a sort of glass-half-empty thing, because the other side of that is we're so massively fucking rich that we don't even give a shit.

Gummint stayed out of personal lives back then? This is a libertarian meme which, I think, is a big lie, or at least a misunderstanding of how things are/were. If you care to skip the civil war we can start with the Jim Crow laws which mandated "separate but equal", which started immediately following. Those laws were a part of this wonderfully libertarian model you enjoy so well. Did you just not learn about them in public school or something?

Did you notice that it was federalism that ended those laws? Anti-freedom federalism?

Did you think it was better when 50% of us were poor farm families? Did you not notice that the period you say things got bad coincides neatly with the industrial revolution? Did you not notice that our ability to stay out of war with other countries - except for Mexico - and Spain via Cuba - ended with the invention of the airplane, which allows people to reach us in shorter than two weeks' time?

Jose Padilla held without charges, hell they fried Sacco and Vanzetti during this freedom-lovin' period. The libertarians of their era, they put 'em in the electric chair. Good times!

Radar · 12-31-2007, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griff

Assuming that many innocent people will die in your revolution, how are you squaring that with the whole initiation of force issue?

It's not the initiation of force. It's the use of defensive force against those who are initiating force against me. Those who are working with or defending those who are using force against me are also using force against me.

In other words, they started it, and I'll finish it and anyone who gets in my way isn't innocent.

Radar · 12-31-2007, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

"If they're not fighting alongside me, then they are by definition not innocent." - Magic 8-ball, future-quoting Radar

Very close, but not quite. If they don't stand in my way, and allow me to take the country back, they aren't my enemy. If they do, they aren't innocent.

Radar · 12-31-2007, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by regular.joe

I suppose the really awesome thing is that Radar is not in jail, indefinitely right now, for supposing such a thing as armed overthrow of the government. Freedom of speech is a pretty cool thing.

Everyone who works for the government is not a bad guy. Most of the bad guys in government are elected. Makes me think. Doesn't mean we should shut down democracy.
The police are not the bad guys. Yea, some of em are card carrying human beings subject to the same whims and selfish actions as anyone else on earth. Doesn't mean we should shut down the police.

Selfless service is hard to find. The people immersed in selfless service aren't advertising. They are being selfless. for that reason, we see more of the bad then we do the good. Doesn't mean it's time to throw the baby out with the bath water.

In defense of the people we don't know who are toiling away doing their damnedest to protect and defend our society. Shortly after 9/11 there was a collective gasp, as many people in our nation asked "How did we allow this to happen?". "Who's responsible, who wasn't on watch???". Now, the same people are trying to get in the way of our defense. Sheesh, you can't have it both ways.

If you don't like something about the laws, and government in the U.S. then get involved in the democracy we have and work to get it changed. If the you fail in your attempt, then live with it. It's a democracy. Not getting your way here, and taking up arms over the issue makes you just another petty dictator who wants his way. Waaaaaa! Now give me my cake!! Childish, immature, and selfish, unable to look beyond yourself...only wanting what seems to be the easy way out. Unable to accept the reality of the community in which you live.

I say it's childish and naive to assume you can make change from within the corrupt machine. It's designed not to change. And those in power work to keep anyone else from ever getting power. America is not a democracy. It never was. For awhile people pretended it was, but it's not; especially with the voting machines being controlled by special interests.

It is my right and my duty to take up arms against any government that violates my rights. You may want to read the Declaration of Independence.

My right to say what I want doesn't come from government so saying I intend to take part in an armed revolution to take the government back online does not prove that I am free. It proves they haven't violated this particular right as of this minute, but they may as they have with so many others.

Chris_Fletcher · 12-31-2007, 04:31 PM

I'm not against immigration at all. I'm againt immigrants coming in and expecting to be put on welfare systems and get all of the same privaliges as those of us that have been putting into the system or who were born here naturally. Plus....we don't follow the constitution anymore anyways so why is everyone getting so pissed off? We have no true freedom of speech or expression and elected officials pretty much follow their own agendas and get their kick backs so why is everyone worried?we have no true control over anything except our own choices. I'm ready for the revoultion! how bout yall?

TheMercenary · 12-31-2007, 07:17 PM

Get over it guys, they are illegal and we need to stop the bleeding at the borders and prevent them from coming here illegally. Then they need to be documented and regulated. Period. Regardless of what Radar wants you to believe, this issue is not one of whether or not he believes if they are illegal. That is a dead end arguement.

busterb · 12-31-2007, 07:18 PM

Welcome Radar Jr.

TheMercenary · 12-31-2007, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar

America is not a democracy. It never was.

You are right. It is a Republic. Thank God it is not a Democracy.

Radar · 12-31-2007, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Get over it guys, they are illegal and we need to stop the bleeding at the borders and prevent them from coming here illegally. Then they need to be documented and regulated. Period. Regardless of what Radar wants you to believe, this issue is not one of whether or not he believes if they are illegal. That is a dead end arguement.

The fact remains that they are not violating the law so they are LEGAL. The indisputable truth is that the federal government has no legitimate authority to create or enforce immigration laws and anyone who says otherwise is a liar or a fool.

There is no question as to the legality of these immigrants because there are no illegal immigrants in America and there won't be unless the U.S. Constitution is amended to grant the federal government authority over immigration.

Any time anyone uses the term "illegal" to describe undocumented immigrants, they are lying. They most likely have an ax to grind in the form of racism or xenophobia.

Clodfobble · 12-31-2007, 10:39 PM

Radar, please rate the following situations in order of desirability:

1.) Unrestricted immigration, and no social services
2.) Unrestricted immigration, and expensive/universal social policies that only established citizens have to pay for
3.) Restricted immigration, and expensive/universal social policies that only established citizens have to pay for

Obviously you would strongly prefer option 1. But can you admit that option 3 is still better than option 2?

Ibby · 12-31-2007, 10:45 PM

NO CUZ THE GUBMENT GIVN ME STUF TAKS AWAY MY RITES

Radar · 12-31-2007, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Radar, please rate the following situations in order of desirability:

1.) Unrestricted immigration, and no social services
2.) Unrestricted immigration, and expensive/universal social policies that only established citizens have to pay for
3.) Restricted immigration, and expensive/universal social policies that only established citizens have to pay for

Obviously you would strongly prefer option 1. But can you admit that option 3 is still better than option 2?

Option 2 and 3 are the same to me. I don't support social programs for citizens anymore than I support them for non-citizens. And for the record, undocumented immigrants contribute more to the economy than they use in services, and not just more....BILLIONS more. They are a net gain to the economy and tax base and therefore don't cost American citizens a single penny.

Clodfobble · 12-31-2007, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar

Option 2 and 3 are the same to me.

Then why would you be fighting to switch from one to the other? Fight about the social programs first, if that's what you want, then immigration will magically take care of itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar

And for the record, undocumented immigrants contribute more to the economy than they use in services, and not just more....BILLIONS more. They are a net gain to the economy and tax base and therefore don't cost American citizens a single penny.

Yes, we've had that discussion many times. It's one of the ones where I can provide lots of references, and you provide none. I'm not bothering again. Let's stick with the hypothetical/philosophical argument for once, shall we?

12-31-2007, 02:19 PM	#107
regular.joe Старый сержант Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: NC, dreaming of large Russian women. Posts: 1,464	I suppose the really awesome thing is that Radar is not in jail, indefinitely right now, for supposing such a thing as armed overthrow of the government. Freedom of speech is a pretty cool thing. Everyone who works for the government is not a bad guy. Most of the bad guys in government are elected. Makes me think. Doesn't mean we should shut down democracy. The police are not the bad guys. Yea, some of em are card carrying human beings subject to the same whims and selfish actions as anyone else on earth. Doesn't mean we should shut down the police. Selfless service is hard to find. The people immersed in selfless service aren't advertising. They are being selfless. for that reason, we see more of the bad then we do the good. Doesn't mean it's time to throw the baby out with the bath water. In defense of the people we don't know who are toiling away doing their damnedest to protect and defend our society. Shortly after 9/11 there was a collective gasp, as many people in our nation asked "How did we allow this to happen?". "Who's responsible, who wasn't on watch???". Now, the same people are trying to get in the way of our defense. Sheesh, you can't have it both ways. If you don't like something about the laws, and government in the U.S. then get involved in the democracy we have and work to get it changed. If the you fail in your attempt, then live with it. It's a democracy. Not getting your way here, and taking up arms over the issue makes you just another petty dictator who wants his way. Waaaaaa! Now give me my cake!! Childish, immature, and selfish, unable to look beyond yourself...only wanting what seems to be the easy way out. Unable to accept the reality of the community in which you live. __________________ Birth, wealth, and position are valueless during wartime. Man is only judged by his character --Soldier's Testament. Death, like birth, is a secret of Nature. - Marcus Aurelius.

12-31-2007, 07:17 PM	#113
TheMercenary “Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo” Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Savannah, Georgia Posts: 21,393	Get over it guys, they are illegal and we need to stop the bleeding at the borders and prevent them from coming here illegally. Then they need to be documented and regulated. Period. Regardless of what Radar wants you to believe, this issue is not one of whether or not he believes if they are illegal. That is a dead end arguement. __________________ Anyone but the this most fuked up President in History in 2012!

12-31-2007, 07:18 PM	#114
busterb NSABFD Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: MS. usa Posts: 3,908	Welcome Radar Jr. __________________ I've haven't left very deep footprints in the sands of time. But, boy I've left a bunch.

12-31-2007, 10:45 PM	#118
Ibby erika Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: "the high up north" Posts: 6,127	NO CUZ THE GUBMENT GIVN ME STUF TAKS AWAY MY RITES __________________ not really back, you didn't see me, i was never here shhhhhh

12-31-2007, 02:03 PM	#106
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	"If they're not fighting alongside me, then they are by definition not innocent." - Magic 8-ball, future-quoting Radar

12-31-2007, 02:49 PM	#108
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	They held Jose Padilla, so let's go bomb the Department of Energy! Those fuckers are stealing all my cellophane wrappers! The country has gone to total shit since 1950! Well except that it hasn't, in any memorable way. When you step back and take a look, you may notice that things are really going quite well. Half our money is taxed away? I guess that's a sort of glass-half-empty thing, because the other side of that is we're so massively fucking rich that we don't even give a shit. Gummint stayed out of personal lives back then? This is a libertarian meme which, I think, is a big lie, or at least a misunderstanding of how things are/were. If you care to skip the civil war we can start with the Jim Crow laws which mandated "separate but equal", which started immediately following. Those laws were a part of this wonderfully libertarian model you enjoy so well. Did you just not learn about them in public school or something? Did you notice that it was federalism that ended those laws? Anti-freedom federalism? Did you think it was better when 50% of us were poor farm families? Did you not notice that the period you say things got bad coincides neatly with the industrial revolution? Did you not notice that our ability to stay out of war with other countries - except for Mexico - and Spain via Cuba - ended with the invention of the airplane, which allows people to reach us in shorter than two weeks' time? Jose Padilla held without charges, hell they fried Sacco and Vanzetti during this freedom-lovin' period. The libertarians of their era, they put 'em in the electric chair. Good times!

12-31-2007, 04:31 PM	#112
Chris_Fletcher You Can't Upset Me Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Alabama Posts: 2	I'm not against immigration at all. I'm againt immigrants coming in and expecting to be put on welfare systems and get all of the same privaliges as those of us that have been putting into the system or who were born here naturally. Plus....we don't follow the constitution anymore anyways so why is everyone getting so pissed off? We have no true freedom of speech or expression and elected officials pretty much follow their own agendas and get their kick backs so why is everyone worried?we have no true control over anything except our own choices. I'm ready for the revoultion! how bout yall?

12-31-2007, 10:39 PM	#117
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	Radar, please rate the following situations in order of desirability: 1.) Unrestricted immigration, and no social services 2.) Unrestricted immigration, and expensive/universal social policies that only established citizens have to pay for 3.) Restricted immigration, and expensive/universal social policies that only established citizens have to pay for Obviously you would strongly prefer option 1. But can you admit that option 3 is still better than option 2?

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)