Iran... ok, now we have a problem.

[DanaC]

Well anytime you all would like to just start to go it alone without US support I am all for it. How about we break realations and see where that gets both our countries?

It would damage both of us. That's hardly the point. Are you suggesting that friendship is something that can only ever be on your terms? If so then it is not friendship. It may be useful, but lets not dignify it with a term of endearment which one side clearly does not feel. What you have just written is similar in nature to a form of blackmail, which suggests that we should just put up, or shut up, regardless of how your country treats us, because we'd be worse off without you. Again, that's not friendship.

[King]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Does anyone here really think that the US is going to enter a war with Iran over 6 British sailors? I am a strong supporter of US-UK ties on many levels. But does anyone really think this is some kind of plan by Blair and Bush to start a war with Iran????

It seems more like an Iranian plan to put one over on Britain, and indirectly the US. Ahmadinejad gets to act like a big shot and Iran gets to act as the innocent party (I don't know whether they are or not, but at this point I'll take the word of our government over that of the Iranians). On a brighter note, they're being released which is good. Ahmadinejad said it was "a gift to the British people", which was nice of him.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by DanaC

It would damage both of us. That's hardly the point. Are you suggesting that friendship is something that can only ever be on your terms? If so then it is not friendship. It may be useful, but lets not dignify it with a term of endearment which one side clearly does not feel. What you have just written is similar in nature to a form of blackmail, which suggests that we should just put up, or shut up, regardless of how your country treats us, because we'd be worse off without you. Again, that's not friendship.

Ah, I agree, but this is what you said:

You dragged us into this, and because we see where it is going and because our politicians can no longer sell us a broken and tarnished vision and start to reduce our involvement, you say fuckem?

We didn't "drag you" into anything. And when you start ranting about "illegal war" you sound like any other lefty here in the US, something I don't buy, but it sure attempts to deflect any responsibility off those who love to parrot it. Look I have the greatest respect, understanding, and admiration for the UK. But don't act like someway you and your country were dragged into anything. Hell, talk about going it alone, considering the token contributions most of the other countries have given, not the UK, we have been pretty much putting our boys through the grinder at a rate that far exceeds that of any other country. I for one understand and appreciate the contributions you all have made. The sooner we all get out the better. Let us not forget that these are problems made for the people by elected governments, not by the populace in general.

Did the hostages say anything about being made to say that they were in Iranian waters?

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Did the hostages say anything about being made to say that they were in Iranian waters?

I don't think they are actually on home land yet.

[Hippikos]

Yea, we have captured and detained a number of Iranian's suspected of supplying the insurgency with weapons and training, just like they have been doing in Lebanon.

And of course, the other side is completely innnocent of that.

Well anytime you all would like to just start to go it alone without US support I am all for it. How about we break realations and see where that gets both our countries?

So goes the other way. Iraq painfully shows that the US cannot do it alone as well and clearly indicates the downfall of Pax Americana.

[DanaC]

The sooner we all get out the better. Let us not forget that these are problems made for the people by elected governments, not by the populace in general.

Fair comment.

The "fuckem" comment related to this

With us juggling Iraq and Afghanistan, I hope the British aren't expecting a lot of help from the US.

Merc, I do believe the war was illegal. I think my country was absolutely hands down right to stand next to yours after 9/11, and to support your efforts in Afghanistan where the perpetrators of that atrocity were hiding. I think we were completely wrong to go with America into Iraq, where there was no threat to either of our nations and where nobody who could possibly be considered culpable of 9/11 was hiding. It was an illegal and ill-advised war, and in following America into it we have damaged our own international reputation as much as America has damaged hers. I believe it was a mistake for America to invade Iraq. I believe that Britain has compounded her friend's mistake by jumping into it with her instead of standing to one side and saying, well if you really feel you need to then go ahead, but in this instance we will not be with you.

President Bush showed very clearly how little his administration valued the British involvement when he point blank refused any amelioration of his plan or any extended time for weapons inspections despite Blair's urging. Several times during that process Blair was shown to simply be ignored and have absolutely no diplomatic weight with Bush whatsoever. In terms of our ability to influence Bush and his administration, we might as well be a little-known banana republic somewhere. Blair was totally humiliated in his own country and in Europe, by Bush's attitude to him.

[Undertoad]

Also, Yugoslavia had nothing to do with 9/11, and Milosevic was merely a misunderstood dictator who had to be brutal to his people in order to keep the country together.

[DanaC]

"Also, Yugoslavia had nothing to do with 9/11, and Milosevic was merely a misunderstood dictator who had to be brutal to his people in order to keep the country together."


And that relates to Iraq how?

[Undertoad]

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, and Hussein was merely a misunderstood dictator who had to be brutal to his people in order to keep the country together.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by DanaC

I believe it was a mistake for America to invade Iraq.

This we agree on. I wish you or your country no ill will. In fact, as stated in a previous post on another thread, if called upon by my country to preserve your republic, I would gladly sacrifice myself to do so. We are joined through history. This we must agree on...

[warch]

I liked Blair's comment about having confidence in the intelligence of the people to recognize this as an act of theater. Great response.

[xoxoxoBruce]

But what about the rest of the audience? The ones watching around the world, especially 2nd and 3rd world?
Is Robin Hood a good guy or bad guy? The peasants say good, the aristocracy says bad....same kind of theater with the same results.
Exactly why we're losing the war in Iraq no matter what the actual outcome.

[DanaC]

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, and Hussein was merely a misunderstood dictator who had to be brutal to his people in order to keep the country together.

The two do not equate. Nobody tried to sell the action in Yugoslavia as a response to the threat they posed, or their role in 9/11. The Bush administration did try to sell action in Iraq as a response to the threat they supposedly posed and their supposed role in 9/11.

Also both Milosevic and Hussein were total unmitigated bastards, who oppressed their people and made the lives of those who disagreed with them difficult or entirely untenable. That's not the point. If international law recognised dictatorship as a valid reason for invading and occupying a country we would have far more wars than we currently do. If the invasion had happened directly after Kuwait, it could have been justified imo.....if it had happened directly after the gassing of the Kurds it could have been justified (soon as someone uses the genocide word, international law allows for action). If the assistance which had been offered to the opposition in Iraq had actually been forthcoming when they attempted to overthrow their dictator, that would have been entirely justified, as that would have been assisting the people in their own self-determination.

The invasion of Iraq was not in any of these circumstances, the invasion of Iraq was an opportunist move by a president and administration who deemed it useful to America to do so.

[DanaC]

TWe are joined through history. This we must agree on...

Agreed. I would have it no other way. *smiles*

When I rail against decisions by the American administration, that is as far as it goes. I have never ceased to feel culturally and historically linked to America as a country and Americans as a People. I doubt there's many people in the UK that don't feel that bond of kinship. In a way that's what makes it so frustrating when the Administration acts with such disdain towards us.