Transgender young people detransitioning

[Flint]

NO goddamnit we DO NOT allow kids to do that.
NOBODY is doing that and NOBODY is saying we should.

[henry quirk]

Originally Posted by Flint

NO goddamnit we DO NOT allow kids to do that.
NOBODY is doing that and NOBODY is saying we should.

So: no minors are allowed to take any kind of hormone or hormone-alterin' treatments to affect gender appearance, and no minors are undergoin' any kind of sex/gender alterin' surgeries, yeah?

Well then: what's the big whoop?

If minors can't monkey 'round with the structure of their bodies in any real way, then all they can do is play dress up, yeah?

Again: what's the big whoop?

[Undertoad]

For balance, or whatever, here is an account of a woman transgendered long term. More comfortable in her own skin, absolutely no regrets whatsoever. Faces the dumb rejection of (some) family and others,

[Flint]

Also of note, suicide statistics. These would belong in Happy Monkey's "do nothing" category. Unless there is an equally compelling outcome on the other side of the equation, I'm really at a loss to see an opposing argument.

Unless, *checks notes* ahh yes, trans people "make me feel icky"

[DanaC]

Trans people don't make me feel icky - I was actively supportive of a small group of trans people who were campaigning in my borough for better access to health services and a less obstacle laden path to transition for those that need it, back when I was a local councillor.

I do have concerns about children going through this stuff - and so, seemingly do quite a few trans people, going off some of the youtube commentators.

Having those concerns does not equate to being anti-trans. But that is where the argument always ends up: if you question the current approach in any way you are denounced as anti-trans - even if, like a few commentators i have seen, you are yourself transgender.

This, right here, is why the issue is of concern - because it is far too politicised.

There's a really nasty anti-LGBT and in particular anti-trans streak in some of the discourse especially coming from the right - and that needs watching, but lumping any questioning into that makes the entire topic toxic

[Luce]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Trans people don't make me feel icky - I was actively supportive of a small group of trans people who were campaigning in my borough for better access to health services and a less obstacle laden path to transition for those that need it, back when I was a local councillor.

I do have concerns about children going through this stuff - and so, seemingly do quite a few trans people, going off some of the youtube commentators.

Having those concerns does not equate to being anti-trans.

This is the problem I have. My youngest kid (24 years old) is transgendered and has been since age 16. He has no intent of physically transitioning to a male body, mostly due to medical issues.

So believe me when I say I have no beef with transgender people, even if I still screw up the old pronouns now and again.

But my limit is right about here, with medical procedures being done on children. I can see both ends of the argument, but I don't know enough about the medical risks to be okay with a minor transitioning.

[Flint]

There. Are. No. Medical. Procedures. Done. On. Children.

[Luce]

Originally Posted by Flint

There. Are. No. Medical. Procedures. Done. On. Children.

Then that simplifies things greatly, and there is no issue at all.

[Luce]

This now falls into the realm of "don't tell people what to do."

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by Flint

There. Are. No. Medical. Procedures. Done. On. Children.

That is incorrect.

Mastectomies for girls as young as 13 who have already decided to transition are medical procedures on children.

Using hormone blockers on a child is a medical procedure - it just isn't a surgical one - there is some evidence to suggest it can have an impact on their health in later life: though this seems to be particularly the case for female to male transition. There is evidence (I am not well versed enough to be able to say how compelling) to suggest that girls who block puberty and then transition through male hormones do not store sufficient calcium and are at much higher risk of osteoporosis.

I think it's a different situation with boys who are given puberty blockers - there seems less evidence of long term impact from the delaying of puberty.

There is also an apparent risk of infertility and other irreversible effects - though how much of that is through delaying puberty and how much through the use if male or female hormones to allow transition I am not sure.

There are also risks involved in not allowing transgender children to begin down the path - and they shouldn't be minimized.

Parents of trans children are between a rock and a hard place - and so are many health professionals - but there is, running alongside that an ideological drive by some to actively promote gender transition or genderlessness - (from kids shows on youtube singing songs for pre-schoolers about how everyone is really queer and teaching all about the multiplicity of genders on the spectrum (Moon Gender anyone?), to an insistence that you don't need gender dysphoria to be transgender and deplatforming academics and health professionals who disagree and who consider it the definitive reason for transition.


So there is a risk that youngsters who are not suffering from gender dysphoria, but are subject to other forms of body dysmorphia are finding themselves on the transgender track - all the whlle having that diagnosis validated and confirmed by that track so they end up on hormone treatments by the the time they are in their early to mid-teens: and if someone who doesn't actually have gender dysphoria
is misdiagnosed and treated as if they do, then this can actually create dysphoria by bringing about fairly radical changes some of which will not go away if they decide to abandon hormone treatment.

Again, this seems to be something which is primarily affecting girls who think they are transgender and then realise its something else, like anorexia, or anxiety about male attention.

There are cases of the above. How prominent that experience is compared to those for whom early transition partly or wholly resolved their gender dysphoria and allowed them to live a normal life, i don;t know - and I suspect few, if any here know either.

[henry quirk]

Originally Posted by Flint

There. Are. No. Medical. Procedures. Done. On. Children.

Originally Posted by DanaC

That is incorrect.

Mastectomies for girls as young as 13 who have already decided to transition are medical procedures on children.

Using hormone blockers on a child is a medical procedure - it just isn't a surgical one - there is some evidence to suggest it can have an impact on their health in later life: though this seems to be particularly the case for female to male transition. There is evidence (I am not well versed enough to be able to say how compelling) to suggest that girls who block puberty and then transition through male hormones do not store sufficient calcium and are at much higher risk of osteoporosis.

[Undertoad]

I think a good "icky" to fight is just masculine women and feminine men. Some will transition, some will be gay, some will be straight and it's all just part of the beautiful human spectrum.

The transfolk I have known were last generation and seemed "born that way" or, as was thought at one point, influenced so early in childhood that it's the same thing. There seems now to be a new broader generation of people who are not exactly in that category. People who give up transitioning because they realized they were "just gay". I've seen a few of those stories.

[DanaC]

Coincidentally, given my comment:

Having those concerns does not equate to being anti-trans. But that is where the argument always ends up: if you question the current approach in any way you are denounced as anti-trans - even if, like a few commentators i have seen, you are yourself transgender.

This, right here, is why the issue is of concern - because it is far too politicised.

There's a really nasty anti-LGBT and in particular anti-trans streak in some of the discourse especially coming from the right - and that needs watching, but lumping any questioning into that makes the entire topic toxic

Blaire White's latest, in which she tackles the accusations of transphobia she has received recently:

[DanaC]

Oh look: exactly the thing I was concerned about...apparently this stuff is happening here as well. I am familiar with the clinic in question as a friend / colleague of mine was campaigning for changes in the funding formula and routing back in 2010:

[Flint]

I misspoke by not clarifying that "trans people make me feel icky" wasn't directed at anyone in particular. I didn't mean anyone in this thread or anyone referenced here.

My apologies, as the main discourse about trans people currently in circulation is a never-ending string of angry patriots shouting "why do [trans women] want to shove tampons up their butt!" and a very tired army of people replying, endlessly, "the sanitary products are for trans MEN"