Who can tell me sth about the American Dream

[jaguar]

He came to waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too cynical a forum to ask this question

That was a self-fulfilling statement if I ever saw one.

many do it not because they are downtrodden people, as you seem to think, but because it is a cost effective form of housing.

And people drive crappy old cars because they like the rust.

they get to keep their offices because too many people take the defeatist attitude that you can't change anything so why try.

Voting tweedle dum or tweedly dee this time? Nothing will change until fiat currency collapses under the weight of stupidly populist policies from both parties.

The middle class is dieing off the western world over, the money gap is widening and will only continue to, end of story.

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by jaguar

The middle class is dieing off the western world over, the money gap is widening and will only continue to, end of story.

Hm. I wonder what side of the gap you will be on, Jag. I mean, most people like to think of themselves as at least able to support their families--even if they do live in those really tacky trailer parks...right? Have you ever had a friend who lived in a trailer park? I've gone to many in my professional life and I have a cousin who lives in one. They are amazingly regular-type people. Some really do live there by choice. Not everyone is a snob.

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by jaguar

And people drive crappy old cars because they like the rust.

i drive older vehicles even though i have the ability to buy new and more upscale. i don't place my value in shiny new cars. the new smell goes away and then what do you have, but another used car.

and mobile homes? my parents and many like them sold their very nice stick-built homes to live in mobile homes because they are functional and free up a lot of money.

[Bullitt]

If you want a good look at how the American Dream of old is fading away read Nickle and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich. Gives you a rude wake up call and a greta look into the lives of people who dream the American Dream but will never make that dream become a reality. Its a very sobering book.
Didin't like the author much, kind of a whiner/self rightous liberal.

[Radar]

You have to move to India, China, or Mexico if you want to live the American dream. But seriously though there's a good book on this subject. It was written in about 1979 but it's still very apt today.

It's called, "Restoring the American Dream" by Robert J. Ringer

[jaguar]

There's a touch of difference between selling your nice house and spending your retirement moving around to living in a trailor park, let's be straight here, you're dodging and weaving to avoid the point. Given the choice, somewhere between the vast majority and nearly everyone would prefer to live in a house than a trailor park.

Brianna: Not entirely sure what your point is. I'm sure some are perfectly nice people, I don't see how that impacts on my argument either, nor my socioeconomic status, which could best be described as 'complicated'. I've been rich and I've been poor but it's a trend with statistical proof, not a snobby observation.

[lookout123]

The "American Dream" is what you make it. it isn't the same for everyone. everyone dreams of a better life for themselves, some people help themselves to achieve it.

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by jaguar

, nor my socioeconomic status, which could best be described as 'complicated'. I've been rich and I've been poor but it's a trend with statistical proof, not a snobby observation.

My limited understanding is that those who tend to romanticize the "poor" (however you define it) often have never dealt with them in any meaningful way. I don't know anything about you, save a few remarks you've made, but my myopic eyes were opened a tad after I started actually WORKING with the poor, sick and downtrodden. I've been in a few situations I wanted right out of...I'm not proud of that, but I found I could not be effective in those particular instances. Have you ever been to a home where there were dog feces and cockroaches all over the floor, countertop, bedspread, and cooking area? To my middle-class eyes those things were intolerable...to those who lived there it was normal. How to help? I wanted them to clean up and they thought I was a "college-educated" butt-insky sent by the State. What would you have done? (I realize I am off topic, sorry, but really, what would you do??? I had to scour myself every night to be sure I hadn't brought cockroach's into my home)---I apologize, in advance, for my middle-class bullshit.

You are correct when you ask what this has to do with anything--I am muddling my meaning which is this: you kind of come off as a snob, Jag, whether you are one or not. The first credo in working with the poor, sick and downtrodden is to be as one of them. That has been my experience and I've been doing it for 20 years. They've not much patience for "idea's"--that's all I mean.

[jaguar]

What's your point though? People live in squalour, seen plenty of the same in the 3rd world, not in the first but how does that relate to the growing gap between rich and poor? I didn't go into nursing or social services for a reason.

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by jaguar

I didn't go into nursing or social services for a reason.

Amen!

it's a very tough gig. I don't know, Jag, but with your smarts and your travel and your opportunity...I just wish you could see what I have seen. How do you want to help? Or, maybe you already are? I don't know. i just find it easier, in myself, to talk rather than do. That may not be your way, but, sadly, it is the way of a lot of us. (talk instead of DO)

[jaguar]

It's a trend, a massive economic change with as far reaching effects as many that have come before it, I can only ride waves as I see them, not make my own, at least for now . Bruce is right when he says I'm more worried about trends and movements than people, for now, I can't really do much but if I can get clued up enough about the mechanics behind the curtain, maybe one day.

[glatt]

Brianna, if one doesn't have the motivation to wipe the dog feces off the floors, beds and counters, that's not because they are poor. There's something else at work there. You don't need money to clean up piles of shit in your house.

[garnet]

Originally Posted by lookout123

Everyone has the opportunity to go to college in america. their are countless scholarships, grants, and loans available - and lets not forget about the GI bill.

Yeah right. Have you ever tried getting one of those scholarships or grants lately? Or even better, try paying off those student loans before you drop dead at age 80. In most most countries in Europe it costs much less to attend college, and is sometimes free. Not here. Yeah, you can go for the GI Bill, if you don't mind taking the chance that you'll get blown to bits in Iraq first.

Originally Posted by lookout123

BS. some people do have to work very hard and they will end up in a management position at McD's. good for them. they won't be wealthy, but they show up to work every day and contribute to a productive society. Are you aware that a Jack-N-The-Box manager starts at $35K/annual? That isn't too bad for a starting position that doesn't require a degree and has a distinct promotion track and good benefits. it may not be prestigious, but it is a necessary job, so don't disrespect the guy handing you your fries. He/she is working to support his family.

And I'll bet ya that guy working that great job as a manager at Jack in the Box comes home and drinks a six pack every night because he's so miserable he has such a shitty job. And BTW, you can't just walk through the door and grab one of those $35,000 positions--they still want years of experience, good people skills, and a good business sense. Not everyone has those things.

Originally Posted by lookout123

Mari - you are a highly educated individual with a lot of compassion for those around you but have fallen prey to the cult of victimhood. negativity will hold you down faster than anything in the world.

No, I think she's fallen prey to the cult of reality. There is no such thing as the American Dream for many people without a certain level of education, or the intelligence to achieve that level of education.

[garnet]

Originally Posted by Bullitt

If you want a good look at how the American Dream of old is fading away read Nickle and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich. Gives you a rude wake up call and a greta look into the lives of people who dream the American Dream but will never make that dream become a reality. Its a very sobering book.

I agree--great book. Definitely worth the read.

[Trilby]

Too true, Glatt. What I am saying is that it: (dog feces, cockroaches) have become normal to many. How to combat that? how to say, "well, your mother and father were pigs and not the norm and thank God we are here to help!" without causing a war? you've no IDEA how many people live like this!