Let's talk about Israel and Palestine...

[DanaC]

Yeah, I know about Iron Dome. I thought it was a really useful thing and might give Israel some breathing space to engage in other methods than wholesale slaughter. With the Iron Dome system in place, Hamas is effectively almost neutralized as a threat to Israeli citizens. Three weeks and thousands of rocket attacks and only three civilian deaths - more people die from road traffic accidents.

It's one of the reasons I find their current actions so deplorable and incomprehensible. They don't have to do this to defend their people. When Hamas joined with Fatah and agreed that they could live with a two state solution that no longer called for the destruction of Israel - the time was ripe for a real solution.

Hamas is a toothless enemy. They are the knight in Monty Python's Holy Grail - on the floor with no arms or legs, shouting at their opponent to fight them and threatening to bite their ankles.

I have friends who have spent time in Gaza and the West Bank (and Israel as it happens). There is a lot of misinformation on both sides. But there is also an undeniable truth: what is happening in Gaza is a massacre. Whatever Israel's right to self defence I do not believe it extends to the slaughter of thousands of civilians, the displacement of hundreds of thousands more and the effective imprisonment of the entire Gazan population.

And @ Clod: as for the idea that anybody who stays in Gaza deserves to die: they cannot leave. That's why people have started referring to it as an open air prison. They have no choice but to stay. They are boxed in by land, air and sea.

I wasn't going to come in here again. But I saw you'd (bruce) responded and I usually find that you have a very balanced view of these things. I feel much better for having read your post. I'm probably going to stay out of here though from now. It just makes me feel like crying.

[Undertoad]

Yeah, I know about Iron Dome. I thought it was a really useful thing and might give Israel some breathing space to engage in other methods than wholesale slaughter.

If Israel wanted to engage in wholesale slaughter in Gaza there would be no Gazans. (And they would be using much different tools for the job.)

With the Iron Dome system in place, Hamas is effectively almost neutralized as a threat to Israeli citizens.

It's not Hamas. It's the people sending missiles to Hamas.

And the current level of defense works, I mean, as long as you're fine getting shot at as long as the bullets don't kill you. But it'll only work until better missiles get there. Of course one could prevent better missiles from entering Gaza and in fact the sea blockade has prevented much more serious munitions from getting through.

Oh, but you are against the blockade!!

Do you think more Gazans are gonna not die if Tel Aviv loses 10 city blocks? Do you want actual wholesale slaughter of Gazans? Because that's how you get actual wholesale slaughter of Gazans. Not to mention worldwide economic upheaval, which in effect kills millions.

Iran is giving Hamas munitions. Why, if Hamas is so ineffective as you say? Well the Shiite world is projecting its international power by giving money, power, and arms to the locals. Are you cool with that?

Not asking if you're cool with arming the locals, everybody does that. I mean would you prefer to live in a Shiite world? At the very least you would be required, Inquisition-style, to convert.

And @ Clod: as for the idea that anybody who stays in Gaza deserves to die: they cannot leave. That's why people have started referring to it as an open air prison. They have no choice but to stay. They are boxed in by land, air and sea.

They're surrounded! On all three sides... out of... four.

I wasn't going to come in here again. I'm probably going to stay out of here though from now.

I won't have it. You get right back in here and argue with me young lady.

[xoxoxoBruce]

They're surrounded! On all three sides... out of... four.

Yeah but the fourth is down and the Israelis got real pissy about the Pals digging.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Do you think more Gazans are gonna not die if Tel Aviv loses 10 city blocks?

That is hyperemotional reasoning. Hamas tiny rockets are lucky to even find the Tel Aviv border let alone take out 10 blocks. Only reason Israelis are not massacring Palestinians is world reaction. Israel fears delegitimisation. Israel (Likud - not Israel in general) is killing as many Palestinians as they can get away with.

They took out all Gaza electrical supplies. They destroyed water desalination plants. How to kill as many Palestinians as possible without completely destroying Israel's international credibility? Create a slow death that can be blamed on failed plants.

Throughout the world, condemnation of Israel has increased. As expected of a country run by extremists. In the 1960s, American news services did not even have any news bureaus in Arab countries. Peter Jennings was one of the first to correct that glaring mistake. Slowly Americans are learning the other side of this story. It was never about Jews verse Palestinians. Story includes wacko extremist Likud, Hamas, and many more moderate and disempowered groups.

It was no accident that Likud called for the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin because he participated in the Oslo Accords. Zionism could not accept peace that would undermine their theft of the West Bank. Zionism labels all Palestinians as evil since that creates hate to empower extremists.

70% of America's 7 million Jews now support an Israeli-Palestinian two state solution. While Likud has moved even more right wing extremists to belligerently oppose it. American Jews are increasingly critical of Israel's rising religious extremist nationalism. Due to extremists such as Likud, politics is now driven by a lie that says God gave this land to the Jews.

Most in Gaza are not Hamas. Most are Fatah. However wacko extremist Hamas holds the power. Likud, another wacko extremist organization, assumes anyone in Gaza must be evil and murdered. The UN notes examples of Hamas violating UN safe zones. But most criticism has been strongest, more often, and directed at Israel for intentionally shelling and bombing what Israel knew to be UN safe zones. Israelis did a similar murder of UN observers from Austria, China, Finland and Canada on the Lebanon border - knowing full well where these UN observers were located. The observation post had ten foot letters UN. Israeli army still shelled that observation post *accidentally* 14 separate times in one day. Same country also accidentally attacked the USS Liberty with bombers and then with torpedo boats.

Slowly even liberal Jews in America are withdrawing support for Israel. Because Likud’s open contempt of Arabs is increasing. A recent BBC global poll (before Gaza) reported that negative views of Israel are now twice as large as positive views.

And still, some in the US refuse to admit the problem. A recent NBC News report detailed the air attack and murder of four Palestinians kids playing on a beach. Little different from what Americans did from helicopters by firing on Vietnamese farmers just for fun. NBC management disliked the report and reassigned their reporter. However a major social media campaign against NBC got this NBC reporter reinstated. We still have problems getting the full story due to some in network management.

Hamas is not any better. A Saudi foreign minister defined it best. Just ignore Hamas. Hamas is empowered when someone foolishly attacks all other Palestinians. Had Israel used trade and interchange with the majority of moderate Palestinians, then Hamas would be powerless. But Likud assumes all Gazans are Hamas. Even the murder of four kids while playing football on a beach is considered acceptable. Extremists (ie Hamas) increase power when enemy extremists (Likud) empower them.

Hamas has almost no friends in the Arab world. Egypt has no love of Hamas extremists who even attacked Egyptian troops in the Sinai. Saudis also have no love for Hamas. But Likud empowers Hamas by exercising contempt for and harming a majority (Fatah) in Gaza.

An extremist Knesset even banned its only Arab representative for representing the minority view and advocating civil rights.

An increasing anti-extremist movement among Israeli Jews is demanding civil rights for all non-Jews. Likud considers this a strategic threat to Israel. Their contempt for civil rights creates Likud's greatest fear - delegitimisation. A problem becoming obvious when the World Conference on Racism in 2001 defined Zionism as racism. We know what Zionism wants - the West bank. Send Palestinians back where they came from - an extremist Israeli view similar to 1960s American racism.

Europe is well ahead of America in acknowledging this Likud problem. Especially when Israel (Likud) summoned all European ambassadors to protect Jews in their countries. Then an extremist and former head of Shin Bet (Israel's intelligent agency) warned that Israeli force would be used to protect expatriate Jews. Only N Korea would consider that acceptable behavior.

This is not a nation of moderates. As Israel moves more extremist right, the world is learning how contemptuous Israel is even for civil rights.

Had Israel been lead by moderates, then Hamas would have been powerless. Most Arab nations also want that. Hamas has support only because Israel has been so right wing Likud extremist.

[Undertoad]

Hamas tiny rockets are lucky to even find the Tel Aviv border let alone take out 10 blocks.

Did you read the article I linked? Iran was shipping them missiles that have a 125 mile range.

...soldiers carried out a preliminary inspection of the ship and found several dozen advanced Syrian M-302 missiles, with a range of up to 200 kilometers (125 miles) and a payload of up to 170 kilograms (375 pounds). The missiles were hidden in shipping containers also carrying sacks of concrete.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Did you read the article I linked? Iran was shipping them missiles that have a 125 mile range.

And have trouble hitting their targets.

In D-Day, nine ships launched rockets at the beaches. Not one single rocket hit its target. Rockets without a sophisticated guidance system hit the wide spans of nothing. So many rockets. Near zero Israeli deaths. She posted the damning fact. Those rockets are mostly a nuisance. Worry more about deaths by out of control automobile drivers. At least they can hit something.

Global poll from the BBC. Likud violence means twice as many in the world now think negatively about Israel. The wor;d did not prmote hate. Likud did - so much as to even call for and get the assassination of Rabin. And the useless war against Hezbollah in Lebanon. Likud did everything possible to even restart Intafada 2. Since hate even justifies the occupation of the West Bank - stealing of land.

[xoxoxoBruce]

UT was talking about rockets that were intercepted before they reached Hamas.

tw is talking about rockets they all ready have and rockets in WW II.

[DanaC]

An article about the very small opposition to the war within Israel, from the Guardian:

Gideon Levy doesn't want to meet in a coffee bar in Tel Aviv. He is fed up with being hassled in public and spat at, with people not willing to share the table next to him in restaurants. And now he is fed up with the constant presence of his bodyguards, not least because they too have started giving him a hard time about his political views. So he doesn't go out much any more and we sit in the calm of his living room, a few hundred yards from the Yitzhak Rabin Centre. Rabin's assassination by a rightwing Orthodox Jew in 1995 is itself a sobering reminder of the personal cost of peacemaking in Israel.

In his column in Haaretz, Levy has long since banged the drum for greater Israeli empathy towards the suffering of the Palestinians. He is a well known commentator on the left, and one of the few prepared to stick his head above the parapet. Consequently, he is no stranger to opposition from the right. But this time it is different. Yariv Levin, coalition chairman of the Likud-Beytenu faction in the Knesset, recently called for him to be put on trial for treason – a crime which, during wartime, is punishable by death.

"It is time we stop regarding despicable phenomena like this with tolerance," Levin said of Levy. Soon after that interview Eldad Yaniv, a former political adviser to ex-prime minister Ehud Barack, wrote on his Facebook page: "The late Gideon Levy. Get used to it."

Read the rest here, it's really interesting.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...speak-its-name

[henry quirk]

Questions...

How long has Israel been in-conflict with its enemies/neighbors/etc.?

How long has Israel (or Israel's opposition) held the capacity/capability to decisively, irrevocably, end conflict (by way of, for example, turning an area into glassy, radioactive, desert)?

Why hasn't Israel (or Israel's opposition) ended (the) conflict?

[Pamela]

Answers:

on and off since 1948

Classified

Israel has attempted to make peace with her neighbors many times. Israel has made one concession after another while their enemies have made NONE and only use cease-fires and peace agreements to rearm and redeploy before attacking anew.

[henry quirk]

...I'll be direct.

If this...

"Israel has attempted to make peace with her neighbors many times. Israel has made one concession after another while their enemies have made NONE and only use cease-fires and peace agreements to rearm and redeploy before attacking anew."

...is the case, then why doesn't Israel decisively, irrevocably, end the conflict when *"according to the Natural Resources Defense Council and the Federation of American Scientists, Israel likely possesses around 75–200 nuclear weapons."?









*from wiki

[glatt]

They would get in trouble.

Plus, as a practical matter, the Gaza strip is only 8 miles wide at its widest, so how are you going to nuke that without nuking your own bordering country, and the winds from the Gaza strip blow across Israel.

It would be like NYC nuking Hoboken.

[BigV]

you say that like it's a bad thing.

[henry quirk]

"They would get in trouble."

Already are and have been for a looooong time, it seems.

#

"Plus, as a practical matter, the Gaza strip is only 8 miles wide at its widest, so how are you going to nuke that without nuking your own bordering country, and the winds from the Gaza strip blow across Israel."

Low yield, kiloton-rated, atomics...yeah, you get cancer in 20 years, but mebbe that twenty years is relatively peaceful...mebbe you wouldn't need to retreat to a bunker every other day.

#

"It would be like NYC nuking Hoboken."

"you say that like it's a bad thing."

HA!

[Undertoad]

The unwritten rule is you can only be a nuclear nation if you only use the weapon as a deterrent against other nukes. Nobody will stand for it any other way.