Being a kid

juju · 06-06-2002, 02:25 PM

I got married last month, and my wife loves children.

I don't have a lot of experience with children, aside from having been one myself. I basically have no experience with children. So, we plan to have one after I get out of college, and we get stable financially.

This has led me to start thinking about the practice of raising children.

Here's what is I know about my own childhood.

I fucking hated it. Parents are dictators and children are the slaves. Children are seen as secondary citizens -- they are not even real people. Their opinions do not matter, and they are expected to 'do as they're told'. That parents profess to love their children is to my constant astonishment.

For example, when a kid is talking about something he thinks is cool, the parents often get bored with him and tell him to leave the room. This is bullshit. People's opinions matter -- especially if you love them.

To this day, my parents have never professed even a passing interest in anything I liked. Computers, Dungeons and Dragons, fantasy novels, everything I loved was seen as an obstacle to school. My mother seemed to make it a point to dislike everything I liked.

My father would always joke that they had me and my brother just so we could do chores for them. You were born so that I don't have to take out the trash. Do it, slave.

If I were to ask too many questions, I was told to shut up. If i was to bother my parents by speaking too much, I was told to be quiet, and go play.

My parents looked down on me. Although they professed to love me, they made it clear that I was not as good as they were. They were superior in every way. Oh, do you have an opinion? That's so sweet. Let's hear your "opinion", moron.

Please explain to me why I should love someone who does not value my opinion, hates everything that I love, and forces me to do menial labor purely for the goal of humiliation.

This is how I saw my life as a kid. Of course, now that i'm older, I have a much better relationship with my parents.

I understand being friends with someone means listening to their boring nonsense and pretending to be interested. In turn, they will listen to your boring drivel, and then you'll feel better about yourself. This epiphany helped me a lot in dealing with family.

Anyway, my point is, the above ranting applied when I was a kid -- it doesn't anymore. Since i'm no longer a kid, i'm no longer a second-class citizen in their eyes. I'm an equal now.

More to come on how i will apply this knowledge to raising own kids.

elSicomoro · 06-06-2002, 03:35 PM

My mother and stepfather were pretty cool growing up. I think they did a good job of teaching me right and wrong, and about being my own person. They never pushed me to do things I didn't want to do, they just encouraged me.

My mom tends to knee-jerk a lot though. Jumps to conclusions very easily. I'm working on her though. ;)

My stepdad is pretty laid back for the most part. He used to yell a lot when I was a child, which I attribute to his alcoholism. He still drinks, but I would say it's more..."controlled."

Just before I moved out of my house (in '99), I was almost at boiling point with them. Lots of silly arguing...all of us wishing that I could move out.

Now, I think they feel guilty. The timeframe between me deciding to look for a job on the East Coast and me moving to Washington was a mere 3 weeks. I thought about it all thoroughly; it just happened rather fast. Completely caught them off guard. Now, they keep nudging Rho and I to move to St. Louis.

Oh, fuck no! I love St. Louis...it will always be my home. But there's a very good reason I left there--because I was bored with it. It was time to go...it wasn't because I wanted to get as far away from my 'rents, or anything like that. Not to mention, the reaction towards mixed couples out there is ummm...in need of some work.

That brings up another little quirk in my parents. I would call my parents "unintentioned racists." They had black friends, but would be quick to blame things on "those fucking niggers." This came to a head about 5 or so years ago. There was a gal that used to come into my bank that I was smitten with...she was black. I think there was some mutual interest, but it wound up going nowhere. Well, I happened to mention this to my mother, and she got kinda irritated by it. I was furious...there was no way in hell ANYONE was going to tell me who I could and could not date. And I think it finally hit home when I gently reminded my mother that we are Native American, which is considered a minority in this country.

After that, things were completely cool. They didn't shit a brick when I was engaged to Mimi (who is Hispanic), and they love Rho (who is black) to death.

I think now that my parents learn as much from me as I do from them...and in the end, that seems to be the ultimate reward from parenting.

06-06-2002, 03:44 PM

sycamore, your point has been made, but I think some of it is lost in your racism.

What purpose did using the word "nigger" serve, you racist?

P.S. - tell Rho I said hi.

elSicomoro · 06-06-2002, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dhamsaic
What purpose did using the word "nigger" serve, you racist?

"What are you, Gene Autry or something? I just cuss to get my point across."--Eazy-E

PS--Rho says, "Kill all de white people."

basilbrush · 06-06-2002, 03:55 PM

I think moving out of home does a lot to change that second class citizen thing. My mother still believes that I cannot do anything properly myself, and that I have to be supervised. I'm 21. And I'm moving out on Monday thank heaven.

My parents had that "you must respect me" deal going on, but I believe respect breeds respect. If you don't respect your kids and their opinions, they're not going to respect you. And if you try drumming that "respect" into them it's not gonna work. It didn't with me. Perhaps I really was the kid from hell. Meh.

juju · 06-06-2002, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by basilbrush
My parents had that "you must respect me" deal going on, but I believe respect breeds respect. If you don't respect your kids and their opinions, they're not going to respect you. And if you try drumming that "respect" into them it's not gonna work. It didn't with me.

Interesting. This summarizes what I was thinking very nicely. I must condense all of my thoughts this way.

warch · 06-06-2002, 06:05 PM

Be sure you're ready for a kid. Be sure you really want a kid. Having taught public school, it was very good birth control, and we are child free by choice. There were, are, so many parents that just seemed to accidently reproduce, its what you do next, and I saw a lot of kids that were in some dire straights. I love kids, I'm everyone's aunt, but raising kids doesnt fit for us, and besides pressure from my Mom to be a grandma, its been an easy decision.

Moms: The only females in the family, my mother and I are polar opposites. Always have been. I'm a tom boy, under the social radar, couldnt wait to get out of the house, town, state. She's classic 50's homecoming queen, prim, proper. She was a good mom. Didnt quite get me, but I always knew she loved me. We've lived hundreds of miles apart since I was 18. In my 20s we really emotionally drifted. She was so conservative, freaking that I was a lesbian, kept sending me make-up and dresses. I couldnt stand her narrow ways, was pretty militant. A few year back it all broke. I realized I really wanted her in my life. Sure she's a freak, so am I. And I saw how incredibly vulnerable she was/is. Here I'm being all victimy and all along she's crushed because I was rude to her. (And I was very rude,I really hurt her, if not more then as much as she me. gulp) So we're better. Still want to throttle each other, but...stop, and dont.

So you want to be a parent? Keep your own experiences in mind when you do- kids deserve love, respect, guidance and time. They will be more important to you than you, and that's being a good parent.

elSicomoro · 06-06-2002, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by warch
Be sure you're ready for a kid. Be sure you really want a kid. Having taught public school, it was very good birth control, and we are child free by choice. There were, are, so many parents that just seemed to accidently reproduce, its what you do next, and I saw a lot of kids that were in some dire straights. I love kids, I'm everyone's aunt, but raising kids doesnt fit for us, and besides pressure from my Mom to be a grandma, its been an easy decision.

That's great to hear warch! You should definitely chip in two cents over in my childfree thread. :)

perth · 06-06-2002, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Children are seen as secondary citizens -- they are not even real people. Their opinions do not matter, and they are expected to 'do as they're told'. That parents profess to love their children is to my constant astonishment.
...
To this day, my parents have never professed even a passing interest in anything I liked. Computers, Dungeons and Dragons, fantasy novels, everything I loved was seen as an obstacle to school.

juju, i grew up in the same kind of household. well, with my father at least. for a while when i was about 9-11, my father insisted that i address him as 'sir'. dont really know what happened to him being 'dad', as that is the title i want most out of this world. i think part of the problem is that partents dont try to share their interests with their children. i love the outdoors, video games, photography, and various other things which i hope to expose my son to, to connect with him as a friend as well as a father. understanding though, that children will develop their own interests and goals to pursue, is important as well. i was never interested in football or wrestling when i was young, but i was pushed into those things by my father because 'thats what men like'. i resent that, and as long as my son develops healthy interests, it doesnt matter to me if theyre my ideals. all that matters is that he be supported in those pursuits. if my son is quarterback of his high school football team, you can be damn sure ill be at every game, even if i dont know necessarily whats going on.

Quote:

I think now that my parents learn as much from me as I do from them...and in the end, that seems to be the ultimate reward from parenting.

amen, sycamore. my ultimate goal is become a better person through my children.

i talk too much about my kid. i think its the overwhelming sense of pride. :)

~james

elSicomoro · 06-06-2002, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by perth
i talk too much about my kid. i think its the overwhelming sense of pride. :)

Nothing wrong with gloating about your kid...I imagine that he consumes most of your world right now. :)

perth · 06-06-2002, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Nothing wrong with gloating about your kid...I imagine that he consumes most of your world right now. :)

oh he does. i moved to second shift at work so that i would be away from him when hes asleep. spending the days with him is a blast. the only thing i worry about is him getting interaction with kids his age, which a daycare would provide.

~james

warch · 06-06-2002, 07:32 PM

Having you around to play with is far better than any daycare. Enjoy your time.

juju · 06-06-2002, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by warch
Be sure you're ready for a kid. Be sure you really want a kid. Having taught public school, it was very good birth control, and we are child free by choice. There were, are, so many parents that just seemed to accidently reproduce, its what you do next, and I saw a lot of kids that were in some dire straights.

Well, i'm 26, and my wife is 27. I do prefer to have my own freedom. On the other hand, I'd hate to be a genetic dead-end. Also, her biological clock is ticking. Like I said in another thread, if we wait 'till we're 40, she might not even be able to conceive at all.

I'd really like to wait, but we can't realistically wait too long. So, my plan is to wait until I get my degree, get moved, and get a nice income going. I have maybe 1 1/2 years of college left. So, if everything works out okay, we're looking at 3 years from now (maybe.. you never know what life will throw at you).

Quote:

So you want to be a parent? Keep your own experiences in mind when you do- kids deserve love, respect, guidance and time. They will be more important to you than you, and that's being a good parent.

Yeah, that's a point well taken. It's just that no one seems to actually do this.

juju · 06-06-2002, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by perth

juju, i grew up in the same kind of household. well, with my father at least. for a while when i was about 9-11, my father insisted that i address him as 'sir'.

See, it's this kind of purposeful humiliation that makes me so angry. How can you love someone and then tell them, "i'm better than you"?

Quote:

Originally posted by perth
dont really know what happened to him being 'dad', as that is the title i want most out of this world. i think part of the problem is that partents dont try to share their interests with their children. i love the outdoors, video games, photography, and various other things which i hope to expose my son to, to connect with him as a friend as well as a father. understanding though, that children will develop their own interests and goals to pursue, is important as well. i was never interested in football or wrestling when i was young, but i was pushed into those things by my father because 'thats what men like'. i resent that, and as long as my son develops healthy interests, it doesnt matter to me if theyre my ideals. all that matters is that he be supported in those pursuits. if my son is quarterback of his high school football team, you can be damn sure ill be at every game, even if i dont know necessarily whats going on.

Yeah, I wouldn't really want to force my kids into any particular interests. I'm sure they'll like all kinds of things that I don't. But it's like I said before -- if you want to be at least partial friends with your kids, you need to at least pretend to be a little bit interested in their boring nonsense. Otherwise, you don't really love your child as a person. You just love the idea of having a child.

juju · 06-06-2002, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by perth

oh he does. i moved to second shift at work so that i would be away from him when hes asleep. spending the days with him is a blast. the only thing i worry about is him getting interaction with kids his age, which a daycare would provide.

~james

So, do you have any problems getting sleep?

06-06-2002, 02:25 PM	#1
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	Being a kid I got married last month, and my wife loves children. I don't have a lot of experience with children, aside from having been one myself. I basically have no experience with children. So, we plan to have one after I get out of college, and we get stable financially. This has led me to start thinking about the practice of raising children. Here's what is I know about my own childhood. I fucking hated it. Parents are dictators and children are the slaves. Children are seen as secondary citizens -- they are not even real people. Their opinions do not matter, and they are expected to 'do as they're told'. That parents profess to love their children is to my constant astonishment. For example, when a kid is talking about something he thinks is cool, the parents often get bored with him and tell him to leave the room. This is bullshit. People's opinions matter -- especially if you love them. To this day, my parents have never professed even a passing interest in anything I liked. Computers, Dungeons and Dragons, fantasy novels, everything I loved was seen as an obstacle to school. My mother seemed to make it a point to dislike everything I liked. My father would always joke that they had me and my brother just so we could do chores for them. You were born so that I don't have to take out the trash. Do it, slave. If I were to ask too many questions, I was told to shut up. If i was to bother my parents by speaking too much, I was told to be quiet, and go play. My parents looked down on me. Although they professed to love me, they made it clear that I was not as good as they were. They were superior in every way. Oh, do you have an opinion? That's so sweet. Let's hear your "opinion", moron. Please explain to me why I should love someone who does not value my opinion, hates everything that I love, and forces me to do menial labor purely for the goal of humiliation. This is how I saw my life as a kid. Of course, now that i'm older, I have a much better relationship with my parents. I understand being friends with someone means listening to their boring nonsense and pretending to be interested. In turn, they will listen to your boring drivel, and then you'll feel better about yourself. This epiphany helped me a lot in dealing with family. Anyway, my point is, the above ranting applied when I was a kid -- it doesn't anymore. Since i'm no longer a kid, i'm no longer a second-class citizen in their eyes. I'm an equal now. More to come on how i will apply this knowledge to raising own kids.

06-06-2002, 03:35 PM	#2
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	My mother and stepfather were pretty cool growing up. I think they did a good job of teaching me right and wrong, and about being my own person. They never pushed me to do things I didn't want to do, they just encouraged me. My mom tends to knee-jerk a lot though. Jumps to conclusions very easily. I'm working on her though. ;) My stepdad is pretty laid back for the most part. He used to yell a lot when I was a child, which I attribute to his alcoholism. He still drinks, but I would say it's more..."controlled." Just before I moved out of my house (in '99), I was almost at boiling point with them. Lots of silly arguing...all of us wishing that I could move out. Now, I think they feel guilty. The timeframe between me deciding to look for a job on the East Coast and me moving to Washington was a mere 3 weeks. I thought about it all thoroughly; it just happened rather fast. Completely caught them off guard. Now, they keep nudging Rho and I to move to St. Louis. Oh, fuck no! I love St. Louis...it will always be my home. But there's a very good reason I left there--because I was bored with it. It was time to go...it wasn't because I wanted to get as far away from my 'rents, or anything like that. Not to mention, the reaction towards mixed couples out there is ummm...in need of some work. That brings up another little quirk in my parents. I would call my parents "unintentioned racists." They had black friends, but would be quick to blame things on "those fucking niggers." This came to a head about 5 or so years ago. There was a gal that used to come into my bank that I was smitten with...she was black. I think there was some mutual interest, but it wound up going nowhere. Well, I happened to mention this to my mother, and she got kinda irritated by it. I was furious...there was no way in hell ANYONE was going to tell me who I could and could not date. And I think it finally hit home when I gently reminded my mother that we are Native American, which is considered a minority in this country. After that, things were completely cool. They didn't shit a brick when I was engaged to Mimi (who is Hispanic), and they love Rho (who is black) to death. I think now that my parents learn as much from me as I do from them...and in the end, that seems to be the ultimate reward from parenting.

06-06-2002, 03:44 PM	#3
dave Guest Posts: n/a	sycamore, your point has been made, but I think some of it is lost in your racism. What purpose did using the word "nigger" serve, you racist? P.S. - tell Rho I said hi.

06-06-2002, 03:55 PM	#5
basilbrush Kinda New Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calgary, AB, Canada Posts: 1	I think moving out of home does a lot to change that second class citizen thing. My mother still believes that I cannot do anything properly myself, and that I have to be supervised. I'm 21. And I'm moving out on Monday thank heaven. My parents had that "you must respect me" deal going on, but I believe respect breeds respect. If you don't respect your kids and their opinions, they're not going to respect you. And if you try drumming that "respect" into them it's not gonna work. It didn't with me. Perhaps I really was the kid from hell. Meh.

06-06-2002, 06:05 PM	#7
warch lurkin old school Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,796	Be sure you're ready for a kid. Be sure you really want a kid. Having taught public school, it was very good birth control, and we are child free by choice. There were, are, so many parents that just seemed to accidently reproduce, its what you do next, and I saw a lot of kids that were in some dire straights. I love kids, I'm everyone's aunt, but raising kids doesnt fit for us, and besides pressure from my Mom to be a grandma, its been an easy decision. Moms: The only females in the family, my mother and I are polar opposites. Always have been. I'm a tom boy, under the social radar, couldnt wait to get out of the house, town, state. She's classic 50's homecoming queen, prim, proper. She was a good mom. Didnt quite get me, but I always knew she loved me. We've lived hundreds of miles apart since I was 18. In my 20s we really emotionally drifted. She was so conservative, freaking that I was a lesbian, kept sending me make-up and dresses. I couldnt stand her narrow ways, was pretty militant. A few year back it all broke. I realized I really wanted her in my life. Sure she's a freak, so am I. And I saw how incredibly vulnerable she was/is. Here I'm being all victimy and all along she's crushed because I was rude to her. (And I was very rude,I really hurt her, if not more then as much as she me. gulp) So we're better. Still want to throttle each other, but...stop, and dont. So you want to be a parent? Keep your own experiences in mind when you do- kids deserve love, respect, guidance and time. They will be more important to you than you, and that's being a good parent.

06-06-2002, 07:32 PM	#12
warch lurkin old school Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,796	Having you around to play with is far better than any daycare. Enjoy your time.

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