So, there's this girl I like............

Just got off of the phone with my niece where I stated "just tell him the truth... what you honestly feel with no tricky language or things for him to have to figure out" six times. Finally, I figured out that she wanted a script... she is twenty-five and a very smart lady... in most ways. She has not seriously dated much.

[maninthebox]

You know, there is a few nice guys out there that does nice things just to be nice. I do nice things for people because that's how I want to be treated, unless they're an asshole first. When I'm nice to women, I really don't expect anything in return. I may have come across that way. 9th Engineer's post may have come aross the wrong way too. Some guys like to do nice things for women, but really don't have the intention of getting laid. I've helped many friends before and they turn thier back on you later like you never existed. I think that was the whole point of the Ode. Well, at least that's the way it came across to me.

[mrnoodle]

Women want to sleep with men. They want to hang out with women. If you are the sexless, safe shopping buddy, it's because you're pretending to be a woman in order to make her feel comfortable. Whether or not you're trying to sleep with her is a separate issue.

The fact is, if you are "best friends" with most women, it's either because you have turned into enough of a chick that she doesn't see you as male, or she enjoys the schadenfreude of walking around in your cloud of pheromones pretending not to notice. There are occasions where other psychological factors come into play, e.g., one or the other acts as a parent figure or is gay, but not usually.

The physical attractiveness of the players doesn't matter. "Best friend" types tend to be similar to one another, and sexual attraction is bound to be tied up in there somewhere, even if it has been buried for the sake of "saving the friendship".

Women, stop pretending that you are surprised to discover that your male friend is not, in fact, a woman in disguise. Men, stop the madness. If you set yourself up to be a genderless drone to get closer to a woman you like, you are lying to yourself and her.

Men and women are programmed to bump uglies with each other, and this utopian idea that we can shut off that urge and all be one big happy ball of platonic oneness is absurd.

No, I haven't dated in awhile. Why do you ask?

[Spexxvet]

Sounds like you're in the "treat women badly and they'll want to fuck you" camp.

[mrnoodle]

Nope, I try to be nice to everyone. If you treat women badly, you probably treat men badly. The men just ignore you; the women talk about it to their friends.

Men don't stay on the phone with each other for 3 hours dissecting the hidden meaning of what their date said that night. Women do. If you stay on the phone with a woman for 3 hours while she dissects, she sees you as a girlfriend.

Say you're on the phone with a girl. Your side of the conversation consists of "hey, what's up? dude, that party was crazy...yeah i know, huh?....nah, not without their top running back....right...exactly...yeah, i'm going to go this weekend....alright...later."

You are treating this girl as a friend.

Now, say it goes like this:

"That outfit looked great on you, don't worry about it....no, he's the crazy one....well, how do you feel about it?....no, it's definitely not you. You had every right to think that....look, why do you let people treat you that way? You deserve so much better......i know....I know......yep...... exactly.....awww, don't say..... no, no, no, I would've said the same thing..."

etc.etc.etc. for an hour. You're trying to be understanding, and a good friend, and a good listener, and all that other stuff. You're taking on the role of a girlfriend. Guys don't talk that way to each other, only to women. This means one of (EDIT) 3 things:

a) you "like her" like her on some level, whether or not you admit it
b) she is your sister or mother
b) you are gay

If none of the above is true, this conversation would have you balled up in the fetal position with discomfort, praying for nuclear war or the rapture to deliver you from this hell of female heart-sharing.

[mrnoodle]

oh by the way, this doesn't mean you can't be shopping buddies with a girl without an ulterior motive. But if you're shopping buddies with her for 3 years, you are either in love with the girl or hopelessly feminized. If you have a significant other that you are sleeping with, you have no shopping buddies. First of all, your girlfriend wouldn't allow it. Second, you would be getting your fill of all that girly stuff from the SO, and would rather die by fire than shop with yet another woman.

[Sundae]

I disagree slightly

I do sometimes force my male friends to help me analyse situations. But I accept they do it under sufference ("I need a male point of view!!! Please?") And I have sometimes dragged them round the shops, but the truth is if I impose on them, they impose on me equally anyway.

I'm not interested in emasculating my male friends. I like them to be male. I also know which of my male friends would like to sleep with me. The fact that it's never going to happen doesn't stop us getting on as people. We bond via humour, intelligence, likes & dislikes.

I have sometimes thought, "If only I fancied X" but the truth is, I'd have to change myself completely for us to live together without killing eachother.

I've also thought, "I could so get it on with Y" but the same applies.

I think getting older helps you appreciate friends of the opposite sex more. At least one of you has the sense to realise it's more fun to have a frisson than make the beast with two backs.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

would rather die by fire than shop with yet another woman.

Too true!

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

Women want to sleep with men. They want to hang out with women. If you are the sexless, safe shopping buddy, it's because you're pretending to be a woman in order to make her feel comfortable. Whether or not you're trying to sleep with her is a separate issue.

The fact is, if you are "best friends" with most women, it's either because you have turned into enough of a chick that she doesn't see you as male, or she enjoys the schadenfreude of walking around in your cloud of pheromones pretending not to notice. There are occasions where other psychological factors come into play, e.g., one or the other acts as a parent figure or is gay, but not usually.

The physical attractiveness of the players doesn't matter. "Best friend" types tend to be similar to one another, and sexual attraction is bound to be tied up in there somewhere, even if it has been buried for the sake of "saving the friendship".

Women, stop pretending that you are surprised to discover that your male friend is not, in fact, a woman in disguise. Men, stop the madness. If you set yourself up to be a genderless drone to get closer to a woman you like, you are lying to yourself and her.

Men and women are programmed to bump uglies with each other, and this utopian idea that we can shut off that urge and all be one big happy ball of platonic oneness is absurd.

No, I haven't dated in awhile. Why do you ask?

I happen to like to shop.
I happen not to have tried to fuck every women I am attracted to every chance I got because if they were fun to hang-out with, that can be cool as well.
I am a man and always have been. The women in my life have always been very satisfied and the current one still is.
I also got laid plenty... when I realized a chick was putting me in the "nice guy" role, that I liked, I called her on it. We became friends or I stopped seeing her... but the game stopped.
Men who think that "this" is manly and "that" is not... need therapy.
I have several women who are friends... men who cannot be friends with a women... need therapy.
If you can't compromise and shop (or anything else) with her while she does things you like to do, don't bitch when your relationship goes in the crapper.

[Sundae]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

I happen to like to shop.
I happen not to have tried to fuck every women I am attracted to every chance I got because if they were fun to hang-out with, that can be cool as well.
I am a man and always have been. The women in my life have always been very satisfied and the current one still is.
I also got laid plenty... when I realized a chick was putting me in the "nice guy" role, that I liked, I called her on it. We became friends or I stopped seeing her... but the game stopped.
Men who think that "this" is manly and "that" is not... need therapy.
I have several women who are friends... men who cannot be friends with a women... need therapy.
If you can't compromise and shop (or anything else) with her while she does things you like to do, don't bitch when your relationship goes in the crapper.

YES! A man who gets where women are coming from. Even if you posted in response to MrNoodle. You are the type of man I am friends with.

[9th Engineer]

Sundae Girl, you have a very similar personality to my mother. Her personality puts her at odds with most other women however, for example she hates gossip with a passion (and any conversation longer than two sentences about someone not present is probably going to be gossip). She is extremely direct and to the point, with no real tollerance for emotionalism. Just out of curiosity, do you get along better in general with men than other women? You sound like you probably would.

[Sundae]

In general - yes. I get on better with men than women if you look at my long term friend ratio. But I stand by my claim that I see a person first rather than a gender.

I have very strong bonds with the female friends I have made. And we're all "Real Women". We might not necessarily respond to emails about puppies and babies and chocolate. But we cry at adverts and books and over-analyse and confuse our partners just like everyone else.

I appreciate the difference between the genders. I just wish people would look deeper. Girly-girls can still get pissed and dance on tables. Proper Lads can still cry at a wedding. And both sexes can be arseholes or doormats.

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

I also got laid plenty... when I realized a chick was putting me in the "nice guy" role, that I liked, I called her on it. We became friends or I stopped seeing her... but the game stopped.

Asserting yourself in this way is a masculine thing to do. "I called her on it" is most definitely a male concept. The female version is "I asked her to please respect my feelings."

Men who think that "this" is manly and "that" is not... need therapy.

Men who have had "therapy" inflicted upon them can easily be identified by their claim that there is no difference between masculinity and femininity.

Shopping's fine, btw. I was just using it as the archetypical "girl" activity, like football is the "guy" thing. I happen to hate watching sports on TV, and can't even feign interest when people talk about them. That's not the point. The activity's boyishness or girlishness isn't defined by the activity itself, it's defined by how the people act while doing it, and the attitudes and moods they display.

You don't need a degree in psychology to tell when someone is acting like a girl/boy. Unfortunately, we've had enough "therapy" rammed down our throats in the last 40 years or so to make us feel guilty for noticing the difference. Women's magazines would have us believe that the ideal man is psychologically female, but able to move heavy objects.

I call BS. We think we're so enlightened -- we make fun of girls for being too frilly, make fun of guys for being too testosterone-filled, but at the end of the day, those very traits are what keep most of us interested in the other side.

(Your dad might collect lace doilies, and your mom might swing a sledgehammer at the construction site. Yay for them. I'm talking about generalities.)

[Trilby]

This is all very interesting. I have always had more guy friends than girl friends--guys are easier to be with IMHO. I hate all the girly bullshit and after I turned 20 I stopped analyzing every utterance made by a man. I'd much rather work with men, much rather hang out with men and definitely rather have sex with men. I like men. I'm very glad I had male children.

As for dating people your not attracted to physically? Well, that only goes so far. A man asked me out last week and I just COULDN'T. He was so not my type--he smoked heavily, had very nicotine-stained teeth, and, judging by his legs had diabetes in the advanced stage. Does not wanting to date this man make me shallow? Come on, there are deal breakers for everybody. To date this man would have been a lie and that is not where a relationship should start.

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

Asserting yourself in this way is a masculine thing to do. "I called her on it" is most definitely a male concept. The female version is "I asked her to please respect my feelings."

Men who have had "therapy" inflicted upon them can easily be identified by their claim that there is no difference between masculinity and femininity.

Shopping's fine, btw. I was just using it as the archetypical "girl" activity, like football is the "guy" thing. I happen to hate watching sports on TV, and can't even feign interest when people talk about them. That's not the point. The activity's boyishness or girlishness isn't defined by the activity itself, it's defined by how the people act while doing it, and the attitudes and moods they display.

You don't need a degree in psychology to tell when someone is acting like a girl/boy. Unfortunately, we've had enough "therapy" rammed down our throats in the last 40 years or so to make us feel guilty for noticing the difference. Women's magazines would have us believe that the ideal man is psychologically female, but able to move heavy objects.

I call BS. We think we're so enlightened -- we make fun of girls for being too frilly, make fun of guys for being too testosterone-filled, but at the end of the day, those very traits are what keep most of us interested in the other side.

(Your dad might collect lace doilies, and your mom might swing a sledgehammer at the construction site. Yay for them. I'm talking about generalities.)

The therapy thing was not meant to be taken litterally... it was meant to mean they are in denial.