What do you hear when people say freedom?

Griff · 01-02-2009, 07:53 AM

There is often a difference between what people think they're saying and what they are saying.
ex: UG thinks he's saying freedom for everyone. I'd say what people generally hear is submit to my freedom. That is why he and Radar and Dana collide, they all want a version of freedom to reign, but their definitions are incompatible.

My current definition shifts with what I see. It may not look that different from Radar's except that I do think that, despite its moral hazards, a social saftey net is in order. I do believe in the freedom to fail, which has become unpopular in governmental circles, meaning I'd rather see Wagoner on welfare than running GM. I believe the Supreme Court got it right, we have a individual right to self defense. I believe in a lot of stuff, but what do you hear?

footfootfoot · 01-02-2009, 09:28 AM

Depending upon the speaker and context, unfortunately I usually hear "license." You know doing what you want without concern for the consequences.

Sometimes I hear Richie Havens singing "Freedom" this one time I saw him in New Hampshire decades ago. He sang himself into a trance, fell off his stool, and continued singing and playing his guitar: Freeeeedommm Freeeeedommm Freedommmm.

He wasn't talking about license, he was singing about freedom. He was invoking freedom in all its manifestations.

Griff · 01-02-2009, 09:43 AM

Wait, he wasn't singing about smoking dope?

lumberjim · 01-02-2009, 09:50 AM

FRENCH FRIES

bluecuracao · 01-02-2009, 10:02 AM

When MLK says it, I get a tear in me e'e.

When Team America says it, I giggle.

When Toby Keith says it, I want to punch him in the mouth.

Griff · 01-02-2009, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by footfootfoot

Depending upon the speaker and context, unfortunately I usually hear "license." You know doing what you want without concern for the consequences.

smart

Quote:

Originally Posted by lumberjim

FRENCH FRIES

yummy

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluecuracao

When MLK says it, I get a tear in me e'e.

When Team America says it, I giggle.

When Toby Keith says it, I want to punch him in the mouth.

Well said.

Shawnee123 · 01-02-2009, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluecuracao

~snip~

When Toby Keith says it, I want to punch him in the mouth.

:

Stormieweather · 01-02-2009, 11:45 AM

A lot of people think 'freedom' means free to do what you like unless you violate MY moral code. Then that is just 'wrong' and should be stopped immediately.

Shawnee123 · 01-02-2009, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormieweather

A lot of people think 'freedom' means free to do what you like unless you violate MY moral code. Then that is just 'wrong' and should be stopped immediately.

Pedophiles are always doing that, thinking they are free to rape children.

My point being, where does one draw the line?

Ah, there's the rub.

Urbane Guerrilla · 04-16-2009, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluecuracao

When MLK says it, I get a tear in me e'e.

When Team America says it, I giggle.

When Toby Keith says it, I want to punch him in the mouth.

I don't get it. I googled Toby Keith, and I still don't get you. Seems like he'd say the sort of thing any American country-music hat-act musician would. Do you reckon he'd get the cuffs out for you?

Griff, from post #1:

Quote:

There is often a difference between what people think they're saying and what they are saying.
ex: UG thinks he's saying freedom for everyone. I'd say what people generally hear is submit to my freedom. That is why he and Radar and Dana collide, they all want a version of freedom to reign, but their definitions are incompatible.

Mulling over radar (a/k/a Paul Ireland), I believe him to be temperamentally unsuited to genuine freedom. It is the narcissisist in him that does this -- his cast of mind is to be an absolute ruler. He can pretend for considerable stretches of time to be a libertarian, but that is not where his heart of hearts is. His ideas of what constitute violations of rights seem on closer examination to be mainly offenses to the Ireland ego.

To say that I say "You submit to my freedom" is not to hear what I am saying at all, but instead to hear only what you imagine I'm saying. Clearly not the same thing. Makes me rather indignant, to be sure. I want you free and happy too. That's a point of deep difference between me and radar, who has never found any such desire in his heart, and his posts repeatedly show this.

DanaC has not to my understanding ever expatiated on liberty. She clashes with me out of a belief in socialism, a less free way than libertarianism. Which is not something she bellyfeels.

TheMercenary · 04-20-2009, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

DanaC has not to my understanding ever expatiated on liberty. She clashes with me out of a belief in socialism, a less free way than libertarianism. Which is not something she bellyfeels.

I don't grok this.

How do you know what she feels?

henry quirk · 04-20-2009, 09:22 AM

"You are taking something from someone, so that is doing harm"

and that matters to the sum total of 'zero'

if joe is an enemy of mine (he killed my nephew, fucked my wife, ate my dog, etc.), and i hurt joe, 'harm' him, by stealing from him, this is a concern for me, how?

"Nothing wrong with eating meat, as long as you humanely kill the animal and don't waste anything"

why do i have to be 'humane' in the killing?

define: 'humane'

if i eat what i need and discard viscera and bones, i'm 'wasting', yes?

so what?

"Of course there are reasons not to do those things; there are morals and ethics and decency"

morals, ethics, decency: who establishes the baselines for these?

what 'authority' promotes, safeguards, enforces, these?

why is 'your' morality, ethics, decency superior to mine and why should i abandon mine for yours?

"I would say we are more like a virus than fleas"

more self-loathing from the peanut gallery…*sigh*

-----

ayn rand: a plagiarist...a half-assed philosopher...a hypocrite

try again...

Undertoad · 01-02-2009, 10:22 AM

Free will is a rather new discovery in the history of the human race. I guess it's those thoughts, choices, and actions you take independently, without depending on the god(s), society/tribes, or other people in your life.

piercehawkeye45 · 01-02-2009, 11:55 AM

Which line? I see a lot of them. In fact, I just see one gray blob.

Shawnee123 · 01-02-2009, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

~snip~In fact, I just see one gray blob.

Well then, quit spying on me. :p

01-02-2009, 09:28 AM	#2
footfootfoot To shreds, you say? Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: in the house and on the street-how many, many feet we meet! Posts: 18,449	Depending upon the speaker and context, unfortunately I usually hear "license." You know doing what you want without concern for the consequences. Sometimes I hear Richie Havens singing "Freedom" this one time I saw him in New Hampshire decades ago. He sang himself into a trance, fell off his stool, and continued singing and playing his guitar: Freeeeedommm Freeeeedommm Freedommmm. He wasn't talking about license, he was singing about freedom. He was invoking freedom in all its manifestations. __________________ The internet is a hateful stew of vomit you can never take completely seriously. - Her Fobs

01-02-2009, 09:43 AM	#3
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	Wait, he wasn't singing about smoking dope? __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

01-02-2009, 09:50 AM	#4
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	FRENCH FRIES __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

01-02-2009, 11:45 AM	#8
Stormieweather Wearing her bitch boots Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Floriduh Posts: 1,181	A lot of people think 'freedom' means free to do what you like unless you violate MY moral code. Then that is just 'wrong' and should be stopped immediately. __________________ "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." - Mahatma Gandhi

04-20-2009, 09:22 AM	#12
henry quirk maskless: yesterday, today, tomorrow Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,162	"You are taking something from someone, so that is doing harm" and that matters to the sum total of 'zero' if joe is an enemy of mine (he killed my nephew, fucked my wife, ate my dog, etc.), and i hurt joe, 'harm' him, by stealing from him, this is a concern for me, how? "Nothing wrong with eating meat, as long as you humanely kill the animal and don't waste anything" why do i have to be 'humane' in the killing? define: 'humane' if i eat what i need and discard viscera and bones, i'm 'wasting', yes? so what? "Of course there are reasons not to do those things; there are morals and ethics and decency" morals, ethics, decency: who establishes the baselines for these? what 'authority' promotes, safeguards, enforces, these? why is 'your' morality, ethics, decency superior to mine and why should i abandon mine for yours? "I would say we are more like a virus than fleas" more self-loathing from the peanut gallery…sigh ----- ayn rand: a plagiarist...a half-assed philosopher...a hypocrite try again... __________________ like the other guy sez: 'not really back, blah-blah-blah...' Last edited by henry quirk; 04-20-2009 at 09:29 AM.

01-02-2009, 07:53 AM	#1
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	What do you hear when people say freedom? There is often a difference between what people think they're saying and what they are saying. ex: UG thinks he's saying freedom for everyone. I'd say what people generally hear is submit to my freedom. That is why he and Radar and Dana collide, they all want a version of freedom to reign, but their definitions are incompatible. My current definition shifts with what I see. It may not look that different from Radar's except that I do think that, despite its moral hazards, a social saftey net is in order. I do believe in the freedom to fail, which has become unpopular in governmental circles, meaning I'd rather see Wagoner on welfare than running GM. I believe the Supreme Court got it right, we have a individual right to self defense. I believe in a lot of stuff, but what do you hear? __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

01-02-2009, 10:02 AM	#5
bluecuracao in a mood, not cupcake Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 3,034	When MLK says it, I get a tear in me e'e. When Team America says it, I giggle. When Toby Keith says it, I want to punch him in the mouth.

01-02-2009, 10:22 AM	#13
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Free will is a rather new discovery in the history of the human race. I guess it's those thoughts, choices, and actions you take independently, without depending on the god(s), society/tribes, or other people in your life.

01-02-2009, 11:55 AM	#14
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	Which line? I see a lot of them. In fact, I just see one gray blob. __________________ I like my perspectives like I like my baseball caps: one size fits all.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)