7/2/2003: "Finger" of God - Page 6

joydriven · 07-08-2003, 01:52 PM

I am not ignoring the verifiable scientific discoveries of facts. There is no such thing as faith in a vacuum, and there is no such thing as facts in a vacuum. I cannot validly claim to have stripped myself of all presuppositions when I encounter a fact. Facts are interpreted through the lenses of the presuppositions we bring to the table. I acknowledge those verifiable scientific discoveries, but I do not interpret them the same way you do.

Carbon dating can be valid, but if you posit the Bible, then you also posit a flood--which (due to sudden immense pressure and vast global consequences) would have significantly altered the effectiveness of various dating methods, since it would provide the necessary conditions for fossilization.

I learned the scientific method in school like the rest of you did, and I don't deny its legitimacy. Nor do I doubt that true science, i.e., that science which is conducted faithfully according to the scientific method, serves usually to verify and never to deny, the claims of the Bible. For instance, the roundness of the Earth in spite of former scientific opinions to the contrary. Or "the morning stars sang," a phrase that was originally written off as biblical poesy but was actually discovered to be true by radio experts during WWII times. This is the case with countless historical and linguistics records as well. The only instances where the Bible's accounts of history and geology have <b>not</b> been verified by science properly conducted have been instances where the Bible itself declares that a supernatural miracle occurred (such as when the "sun stood still" or when the invisible man created the world in six days).

I can't get into the INs and OUTs of the historical, scientific, linguistic verifications that Bible-supporters would consider valid supports. Christians are not only in the minority numerically, but they are sadly in the minority when it comes to scholarly expressions of their faith. If you are interested, here is one creationist site that proposes quite a few valid arguments and interpretations of what even you would call facts, and they are among the very few who do so in a manner worth reading.
<a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp" target="new">Answers in Genesis</a>

I keep coming back to this, but I'll say it again. We are wearing different-colored lenses. I am acknowledging that I have presuppositions and am positing an absolute truth by which I measure all of my interpretations. I submit to you again that you have presuppositions as well that influence your interpretation of the facts.

Ultimately, we all believe what we all want to believe. That we are all free to do so does not mean we are right or wrong in doing so.

xoxoxoBruce · 07-08-2003, 03:02 PM

Quote:

His real power would be to stop it from happening. But he doesn't do that on any regular basis, now does he? We wouldn't be reading about these things in the paper if he did.

Not so sure on this one. When I think about all the times I came close to killing myself with one stupid antic or another, I've sometimes wondered in someone didn't intervene.

Christian hot air?

joydriven · 07-08-2003, 06:47 PM

Hey, I'm just thinking it would be best to move any insane remains of this discussion over to Philosophy as was originally proposed/implied as a good idea.

So, maybe we could continue here....
<a href="http://cellar.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3651" target="new">Philosophy thread discussion re: the God of the Bible</a>

Again, thanks for your patience with my blog bogging.
~joy

matthew1344@hotmail.com

warch · 07-08-2003, 06:55 PM

I feel compelled to pop in ...

Quote:

Facts are interpreted through the lenses of the presuppositions we bring to the table.

So what about "Thou shall not kill".
I'm curious JD, about your thoughts, your personal beliefs and biblical interpretation of recent events like 9/11 or the long violence in the middle east. Is God angry and trying smite us all or something? You've stressed your faith in the absolute truth of biblical God, salvation in heaven; so can a soldier that kills another human be a true Christian? Can a leader that orders others to kill be a Christian? Could you ever imagine a time when you, as a Christian, would be justified by God in killing another human?

joydriven · 07-09-2003, 12:32 PM

hey, warch...

please see here for a reply.

<a href="http://cellar.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=48150#post48150" target="new">"thou shalt not kill" entry on Philosophy blog</a>

richlevy · 07-14-2003, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by perth
i think the best kind of bible to have is an interlinear bible. king james or other common translation, alongside the original hebrew/greek and a literal word-for-word translation. throw in strongs concordance, and theres a lot there you might otherwise not see. its good to get a look at just how much has been edited to pretty-up or change the meaning of what was originally written.

~james

p.s. another link because amazon is being stupid.

I heard that the phrase 'walked on the water' in the new testament is now thought to be better translated as 'walked by the water'. I wonder if they are going to make that change?

Urbane Guerrilla · 07-15-2003, 03:24 AM

But thanks for the cosmic laugh anyway -- the Finger of God...

Uryoces · 07-17-2003, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
Not so sure on this one. When I think about all the times I came close to killing myself with one stupid antic or another, I've sometimes wondered in someone didn't intervene.

Christian hot air?

Is it just me, or does Jesus on that balloon look like the MCP?

xoxoxoBruce · 07-17-2003, 04:53 PM

It's just you.

xoxoxoBruce · 08-07-2003, 04:03 AM

More fingers?

Happy Monkey · 08-07-2003, 08:58 AM

Is that the holy goatse man?

sorry

xoxoxoBruce · 08-07-2003, 11:34 AM

You bastard, now that you've said it that's all I can see.

Happy Monkey · 08-07-2003, 11:54 AM

but I'll stay anyway.

xoxoxoBruce · 10-07-2003, 10:08 PM

Never let a good thread die.

bmgb · 10-07-2003, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Happy Monkey
Is that the holy goatse man?

sorry

I've seen that word so many times, but never knew what it meant.

(No) thanks to google, I now know.

07-08-2003, 06:47 PM	#78
joydriven joywriting in the rock river valley Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Chicagoland area Posts: 41	packing it up Hey, I'm just thinking it would be best to move any insane remains of this discussion over to Philosophy as was originally proposed/implied as a good idea. So, maybe we could continue here.... <a href="http://cellar.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3651" target="new">Philosophy thread discussion re: the God of the Bible</a> Again, thanks for your patience with my blog bogging. ~joy matthew1344@hotmail.com

07-09-2003, 12:32 PM	#80
joydriven joywriting in the rock river valley Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Chicagoland area Posts: 41	"thou shalt not kill" ...redirect... hey, warch... please see here for a reply. <a href="http://cellar.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=48150#post48150" target="new">"thou shalt not kill" entry on Philosophy blog</a>

07-15-2003, 03:24 AM	#82
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	But thanks for the cosmic laugh anyway -- the Finger of God... __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

07-17-2003, 04:53 PM	#84
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	It's just you. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

08-07-2003, 04:03 AM	#85
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	More fingers? __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump. Last edited by xoxoxoBruce; 04-07-2007 at 06:07 PM.

07-08-2003, 01:52 PM	#76
joydriven joywriting in the rock river valley Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Chicagoland area Posts: 41	I am not ignoring the verifiable scientific discoveries of facts. There is no such thing as faith in a vacuum, and there is no such thing as facts in a vacuum. I cannot validly claim to have stripped myself of all presuppositions when I encounter a fact. Facts are interpreted through the lenses of the presuppositions we bring to the table. I acknowledge those verifiable scientific discoveries, but I do not interpret them the same way you do. Carbon dating can be valid, but if you posit the Bible, then you also posit a flood--which (due to sudden immense pressure and vast global consequences) would have significantly altered the effectiveness of various dating methods, since it would provide the necessary conditions for fossilization. I learned the scientific method in school like the rest of you did, and I don't deny its legitimacy. Nor do I doubt that true science, i.e., that science which is conducted faithfully according to the scientific method, serves usually to verify and never to deny, the claims of the Bible. For instance, the roundness of the Earth in spite of former scientific opinions to the contrary. Or "the morning stars sang," a phrase that was originally written off as biblical poesy but was actually discovered to be true by radio experts during WWII times. This is the case with countless historical and linguistics records as well. The only instances where the Bible's accounts of history and geology have <b>not</b> been verified by science properly conducted have been instances where the Bible itself declares that a supernatural miracle occurred (such as when the "sun stood still" or when the invisible man created the world in six days). I can't get into the INs and OUTs of the historical, scientific, linguistic verifications that Bible-supporters would consider valid supports. Christians are not only in the minority numerically, but they are sadly in the minority when it comes to scholarly expressions of their faith. If you are interested, here is one creationist site that proposes quite a few valid arguments and interpretations of what even you would call facts, and they are among the very few who do so in a manner worth reading. <a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp" target="new">Answers in Genesis</a> I keep coming back to this, but I'll say it again. We are wearing different-colored lenses. I am acknowledging that I have presuppositions and am positing an absolute truth by which I measure all of my interpretations. I submit to you again that you have presuppositions as well that influence your interpretation of the facts. Ultimately, we all believe what we all want to believe. That we are all free to do so does not mean we are right or wrong in doing so.

08-07-2003, 08:58 AM	#86
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	Yikes Is that the holy goatse man? sorry __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

08-07-2003, 11:34 AM	#87
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	You bastard, now that you've said it that's all I can see. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

08-07-2003, 11:54 AM	#88
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	My work here is done. but I'll stay anyway. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

10-07-2003, 10:08 PM	#89
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Never let a good thread die. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump. Last edited by xoxoxoBruce; 04-07-2007 at 06:07 PM.

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