Parents dont matter? - Page 2

Flint · 05-28-2007, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Until they can turn out perfect clones at will.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliantha

It's funny you should say that Bruce, because that's obviously the only way to determine it. Of course, that's a whole different discussion.

Genetic clones would not experience identical developmental conditions in the womb; for example cloned house pets aren't even necessarily the same color as the animal they are a "duplicate" of, because their hair color is influenced by nutritional conditions during development. There is also epigenetics, IE the expression of genes, which is influenced by environmental factors (and btw has also been proven to be hereditary in some cases). What I'm saying is that the concept of creating "copies" of living organisms is a myth. Genes alone are not a concrete blueprint.

Sundae · 05-28-2007, 01:08 PM

I disagree with the basic premise that parenting does not have an effect on the grown adult.

For example I know that myself and my siblings have a deep rooted "don't disturb the neighbours" attitude instilled in us by our mother. In me, this evidences itself as a belief that other people's opinions and happiness are more important than mine, and their opinion of me is the most important benchmark in my life. I live in terror of being judged harshly by the outside world and it has affected my job choices as well as general day to day life.

It was when I met a beautiful, witty, kind and generally all round great person who told the same stories as me and had the same ridiculously low opinion of herself that I realised perhaps this was a shared element in our pasts. Yup - her Mum was exactly the same (at least in that regard). Her story was complicated by a divorce, a natural father that showed no interest and a stepdad who had to be pleased at all costs, but I could certainly see parallels in our approach to the world.

I'm not blaming my Mum for my problems - I know my Nan instilled the same attitude in her - but I definitely believe that the values were taught and not endemic.

Ibby · 05-28-2007, 08:54 PM

If nurture didnt matter I'd be listening to emopop-mallpunk right now rather than classic rock.

skysidhe · 05-28-2007, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibram

If nurture didnt matter I'd be listening to emopop-mallpunk right now rather than classic rock.

hehehe quite right! My kid is your age and loves classic rock too.

I didn't have anything to do with him learning the guitar. Us parents can take the credit for everything good.

Aliantha · 05-29-2007, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

Genetic clones would not experience identical developmental conditions in the womb; for example cloned house pets aren't even necessarily the same color as the animal they are a "duplicate" of, because their hair color is influenced by nutritional conditions during development. There is also epigenetics, IE the expression of genes, which is influenced by environmental factors (and btw has also been proven to be hereditary in some cases). What I'm saying is that the concept of creating "copies" of living organisms is a myth. Genes alone are not a concrete blueprint.

Fair enough Flint. The point was and still is, that it's pretty much impossible to ever really know the truth because it's an impossible experiment to conduct.

Flint · 05-29-2007, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Fair enough Flint. The point was and still is, that it's pretty much impossible to ever really know the truth because it's an impossible experiment to conduct.

Oh, yeah. Apologies for the tangent. Your point was and still is a very good one. Carry on...

TheMercenary · 05-29-2007, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Fair enough Flint. The point was and still is, that it's pretty much impossible to ever really know the truth because it's an impossible experiment to conduct.

Don't tell that to psychologists and sociologists. There have been plenty of studies and research done on the conduct of human behavior and situations that set up the eliciting of a response.

Aliantha · 05-30-2007, 01:32 AM

Well, as sociologists can't even agree on what the 'definition' of culture is, I think they'll have a long way to go before they sort this one out.

piercehawkeye45 · 05-30-2007, 11:14 AM

I am a strong supporter of social factors. I have seen many people, including myself, change personalities and their view on life just from hanging out with different people.

Genetics still plays a role, some people will be independant no matter who they hang out with, some people will be leeches no matter they hang out with. It depends on the person usually...

TheMercenary · 05-30-2007, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

I am a strong supporter of social factors. I have seen many people, including myself, change personalities and their view on life just from hanging out with different people.

Genetics still plays a role, some people will be independant no matter who they hang out with, some people will be leeches no matter they hang out with. It depends on the person usually...

I would agree with that fully.

The Eschaton · 05-31-2007, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

I am a strong supporter of social factors. I have seen many people, including myself, change personalities and their view on life just from hanging out with different people.

Genetics still plays a role, some people will be independant no matter who they hang out with, some people will be leeches no matter they hang out with. It depends on the person usually...

sort of, its still surprising how identical those identical twins come out even raised in totally different circumstances. And im not saying environment does not play a role. Everyones misinterpreting this as a nature over nurture post. All it really says is that "parenting" (things like let them cry, pick them up, how much attention, authoritarian or permissive) pretty much anything beyond having s decent relationship with a parent, doesn't really play a role. Now if your parents are wealthy that plays a huge role in how you come out. ALso there are several studies out there that the kids real environment is peers and not parents. Peers determine how you come out.

Aliantha · 05-31-2007, 12:56 AM

There's plenty of evidence to suggest pretty much any side of this multi-sided argument.

There's no doubt peers have a profound effect on the thoughts and habits of the group.

There's also no doubt that different styles of parenting effect a childs world view.

There's also no doubt that genetics play a big role too.

The thing there is doubt about is how much influence each of these factors have.

I would say that research suggests that the answer is, it depends on what stage of life the child/young adult is at.

The Eschaton · 05-31-2007, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliantha

There's plenty of evidence to suggest pretty much any side of this multi-sided argument.

There's no doubt peers have a profound effect on the thoughts and habits of the group.

There's also no doubt that different styles of parenting effect a childs world view.

There's also no doubt that genetics play a big role too.

The thing there is doubt about is how much influence each of these factors have.

I would say that research suggests that the answer is, it depends on what stage of life the child/young adult is at.

I agree with you except for the one highlighted. I strongly doubt that, both from personal observation and the fact of the ladies artcle i referenced that there is no positive support for that supposition. Now i know these studies are statistical in nature but what it seems to indicate (and no i have not read the original studies and not about to, that statistical analysis makes my eyes glaze.) is that researchers find little support for the idea that parenting style has an influence on how a kid turns out. Where as things like wealth and peers have a big influence.

Aliantha · 05-31-2007, 01:42 AM

As I said, it's a combination of many factors. I believe it would be slightly dangerous to suggest that parents have no influence at all.

From my perspective, I know my parents influenced the way I turned out in many ways. I wouldn't be who I am today if I had had different parents. I think most people would say that.

Sometimes it's a great idea to look at yourself and think about your own influences and there you'll find the answer.

piercehawkeye45 · 05-31-2007, 08:58 AM

I don't know, I have seen studies that suggest kids do turn out differently according to parenting style. I can't just get myself to believe that a kid will turn out the same if his or her parents ignore him or her as if the same kid had parents that were watching and regulating his or her every move.

05-28-2007, 01:08 PM	#17
Sundae polaroid of perfection Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 24,185	I disagree with the basic premise that parenting does not have an effect on the grown adult. For example I know that myself and my siblings have a deep rooted "don't disturb the neighbours" attitude instilled in us by our mother. In me, this evidences itself as a belief that other people's opinions and happiness are more important than mine, and their opinion of me is the most important benchmark in my life. I live in terror of being judged harshly by the outside world and it has affected my job choices as well as general day to day life. It was when I met a beautiful, witty, kind and generally all round great person who told the same stories as me and had the same ridiculously low opinion of herself that I realised perhaps this was a shared element in our pasts. Yup - her Mum was exactly the same (at least in that regard). Her story was complicated by a divorce, a natural father that showed no interest and a stepdad who had to be pleased at all costs, but I could certainly see parallels in our approach to the world. I'm not blaming my Mum for my problems - I know my Nan instilled the same attitude in her - but I definitely believe that the values were taught and not endemic. __________________ Life's hard you know, so strike a pose on a Cadillac

05-28-2007, 08:54 PM	#18
Ibby erika Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: "the high up north" Posts: 6,127	If nurture didnt matter I'd be listening to emopop-mallpunk right now rather than classic rock. __________________ not really back, you didn't see me, i was never here shhhhhh

05-30-2007, 01:32 AM	#23
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	Well, as sociologists can't even agree on what the 'definition' of culture is, I think they'll have a long way to go before they sort this one out. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

05-31-2007, 12:56 AM	#27
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	There's plenty of evidence to suggest pretty much any side of this multi-sided argument. There's no doubt peers have a profound effect on the thoughts and habits of the group. There's also no doubt that different styles of parenting effect a childs world view. There's also no doubt that genetics play a big role too. The thing there is doubt about is how much influence each of these factors have. I would say that research suggests that the answer is, it depends on what stage of life the child/young adult is at. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

05-31-2007, 01:42 AM	#29
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	As I said, it's a combination of many factors. I believe it would be slightly dangerous to suggest that parents have no influence at all. From my perspective, I know my parents influenced the way I turned out in many ways. I wouldn't be who I am today if I had had different parents. I think most people would say that. Sometimes it's a great idea to look at yourself and think about your own influences and there you'll find the answer. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

05-30-2007, 11:14 AM	#24
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	I am a strong supporter of social factors. I have seen many people, including myself, change personalities and their view on life just from hanging out with different people. Genetics still plays a role, some people will be independant no matter who they hang out with, some people will be leeches no matter they hang out with. It depends on the person usually...

05-31-2007, 08:58 AM	#30
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	I don't know, I have seen studies that suggest kids do turn out differently according to parenting style. I can't just get myself to believe that a kid will turn out the same if his or her parents ignore him or her as if the same kid had parents that were watching and regulating his or her every move.

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