Abortion Debate - Page 12

mrnoodle · 02-15-2005, 04:47 PM

petrol added, match lit.................

OnyxCougar · 02-15-2005, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Similarly, some people see a pile of plywood and nails and call it a pile of plywood and nails, but OC calls it a house.

being an ass and i know it

?? WTF?

How can a pile of plywood and nails be compared to an unborn child?

A pile of plywood and nails can be shaped into any structure, while a human baby, barring severe abnormalities causing miscarriage, if left unkilled, will ALWAYS come out to be a human baby.

That was a dumb analogy, UT. And people need to stop "thinking" for me. "OC calls it this" and "OC thinks that". I don't do it to you. Please offer me the same respect.

wolf · 02-15-2005, 09:55 PM

While there's a lot that OC and I don't agree on, we on the same page here. Tissue or fetus, it's a baby. I think I posted elsewhere in the thread about the pro-abortion/pro-choice semantic game.

OnyxCougar · 02-15-2005, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6sickchix

You keep prefacing what appear to be statements of fact with "it's my opinion," but as soon as I pointed out something, referring to it as your opinion, and not a fact, you were quick to say that no, it was actually a fact, and not your opinon.

In case you forgot:

You: "Yes, I killed my unborn child" than to say "Yes, I terminated a parasitic relationship." Both mean the same thing.
Me: They don't mean the same thing to everyone.
You: Yes, they do mean the same thing.

This doesn't seem to be you saying that it is your opinion that they mean the same thing. It appears that you are implying that they do, factually, mean the same thing.

From Merriam-Webster:
Opinion:
a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter

I guess, in a way, my opinion is my perception of fact. That doesn't mean it's your perception or that we have to agree or that I'm always right.

So you're right. My opinion is that saying "I killed my unborn baby" IS the same thing as "I terminated a parasitic relationship." You don't have to hold to that opinion, and obviously you don't. But until you bring forward evidence to change my mind, that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Quote:

posted by Jinx
Where as you couch it in term to make yourself feel worse? It's more ok to have an abortion if you beat yourself up a lot afterwards? I don't get it.

That's not what I'm saying.

Some people have no problem with multiple abortions as a form of birth control. Some people don't hold the same beliefs I do. And that's ok. What I'm saying is that my beliefs say that killing an unborn baby is wrong (with limited exceptions) and that whatever YOU may call it, I call it a baby. So to me, it is indeed, "killing an unborn baby".

Quote:

posted by Jaguar
There's a heck of a lot less debate about whether pumping someone full of lead is killing them than (at the bottom end) whether using something like RU486 is murder. You shoot a living, breathing person, they die, it's fairly straightforward. Is 16 cells a life? 100? 1000?

I believe life starts at conception. If left alone, those cells mature into a human baby.

Quote:

posted by Garnet
No, that's just how radical pro-lifers like to portray anyone who is in favor of legalized abortion. Yup, we're all evil and our goal in life is to kill every baby we can get our hands on. Hide the kids, everyone! Hurry!

And of course, all pro-lifers are radical, and overgeneralize like you just did.

I am staunchy pro-choice, because my morals should not be the standard for all women. It SHOULD be the individual woman's choice, guided by her morals and her beliefs. At the end of the day, she and her baby are the ones who have to live or die in the consequence of that choice.

BigV · 02-15-2005, 10:30 PM

I posted this in another thread where I thought it was on topic but the argument roared on without me. The jumping off point was whether or not abortion is murder. It speaks to when personhood begins. I think it is appropriate here.

The core question
For a murder to happen, a person has to be killed. If the an abortion is defined as murder, and the victim as a person, then much, much more should change to be consistent with the stance that the rights of the fetus/embryo/zygote include more that just protection from murder.

I find the prospect that the abortion of a zygote, while certainly “alive”, should, could be considered “murder” as sensible as the prospect that a woman carrying this zygote should be counted as two people in any other circumstance. If she drinks, smokes, or does any other legal physical activities minors are prohibited from, is she breaking the law? If “it’s” a person, and murder-able, why--no--how can the discussion stop there? Which brings come to…
There question in the abortion debate:
"When does human personhood begin?"
A description of all viewpoints

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_when.htm

This is a calm, reasoned, informed discussion of the facts and opinions on all sides. I do not know of a “bright line” that separates one side from the other. I expect that search for such a line will be futile and acrimonious, because such a line does not exist. It is a range, not a point. At either end of the spectrum, the decision is clear, but in the immortal words of Kevin Kline in A Fish Called Wanda, “What was that part in the middle?”. The middle (range) is the part where lots of stuff happens, including personhood. That’s where the answer lies, along a continuum. After all, we’re human beings, taking nine months to develop. For me the emphasis here is on the being, as an active verb, as well as a noun. We don’t talk of dead people as “human was’es” or of a pregnant woman’s baby as a “human will-be’s”.

In the Roe v Wade decision, dividing the pregnancy into trimesters seems a wise, Solomonic decision, the best possible resolution in a minefield of difficult choices. To consider the independent viability of the fetus in the first trimester to be approximately zero, the court concluded that the decision was a medical judgment to be decided by the woman and her physician. In the third trimester where viability is much more likely permitted the court to consider a fetus more like a person and entitled to more recognition as such.

The search for a single marker to define personhood, and from that murder, and medical procedure and everything in between is doomed.

Saying “I’m pregnant” doesn’t work in carpool lanes either, (except in California, predictably).

http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20041122.html
__________________
Yours,

garnet · 02-15-2005, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

And of course, all pro-lifers are radical, and overgeneralize like you just did.

Uhhh, where did I say ALL pro-lifers are radical? I simply stated that mrnoodle's comments sounded like the words of a pro-lifer who is radical on his/her position. I don't believe all pro-lifers are radical, and would never say that. Please don't put words in my mouth. Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

If left alone, those cells mature into a human baby.

So which is it? Cells or a baby? You've called it both in the above sentence, and you can't have it both ways.

mrnoodle · 02-16-2005, 08:56 AM

You're cells, but you're presumably also a fully grown human adult. I think the sticking point with me is that, while I'm radically pro-life (who ISN'T pro-life?), I would never do any of the things that the militant anti-abortionists do, but I'm lumped in with them. I'm not going to feign offense over being called "radical". I was answering UT's analogy with one that I thought was equally excessive and silly.

And for the record, I'm not hypocritical. I think pregnant women smoking or doing drugs when they know the effect on the baby constitutes child abuse, and maybe attempted murder. I think abortion is the killing of a living human (but I won't go so far as to call it murder - there are justifiable reasons for ending pregnancy).

People are so afraid that some religious nut is going to tell them how to live their lives that they fail to realize that there are real people on the other side of the argument. I don't give a rat's ass what you do with your body or your ovaries or what the hell ever. But if I really think that's a person living inside of you, wouldn't I be remiss if I didn't speak out in his/her defense when no one else would?

You'd do the same thing for a dog, but a human life somehow isn't that valuable. I don't get it.

OnyxCougar · 02-16-2005, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garnet

Uhhh, where did I say ALL pro-lifers are radical? I simply stated that mrnoodle's comments sounded like the words of a pro-lifer who is radical on his/her position. I don't believe all pro-lifers are radical, and would never say that. Please don't put words in my mouth. Thanks.

Your comment was a gross overgeneralization, and I pointed it out with another overgeneralization. You seem to call a set system of beliefs that differ from your own "radical".

Quote:

So which is it? Cells or a baby? You've called it both in the above sentence, and you can't have it both ways.

Unborn babies, infants, children, adults and old people all have cells. You're a group of cells, correct?

dar512 · 02-16-2005, 09:51 AM

BigV - Your post is insightful and well reasoned. And will be ignored. What's going on here isn't really debate. It's more -- demolition derby.

garnet · 02-16-2005, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

You seem to call a set system of beliefs that differ from your own "radical".

No, you are choosing to read my post that way so that you can make your point and prove that everyone is picking on you and your beliefs. I clarified what I said, yet you are continuing to insist that I'm insulting you and others opposed to abortion. I'm not.

lookout123 · 02-16-2005, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaguar

There's a heck of a lot less debate about whether pumping someone full of lead is killing them than (at the bottom end) whether using something like RU486 is murder. You shoot a living, breathing person, they die, it's fairly straightforward. Is 16 cells a life? 100? 1000?

Well, the flames are licking at the walls of this doomed thread so I'm pretty much done here. i save my overly defensive name calling posts for tw.

Jag - i wasn't comparing shooting a soldier and aborting a child. i was talking about people who display the need to couch unfortunate, unpleasant actions in euphamistic terms. that is a pet peeve of mine.

"eliminating an enemy combatant" - call it what it is - Killing a person

"terminating a pregnancy" to me has the same ring to it.

mind you, i support the right to choose i just don't like all the justifications that seem to go along with it. admit what is really happening.

*********hey look - the ceiling seems to be about to cave in on this thread*********

mrnoodle · 02-16-2005, 11:42 AM

That was apparent by the title. Everyone always leaves miffed from this argument.

xoxoxoBruce · 02-16-2005, 06:30 PM

Quote:

i was talking about people who display the need to couch unfortunate, unpleasant actions in euphamistic terms.

They have to be more specific than "killing a person"

I feel that killing a person can't be compared with killing a person because....
You get my drift?

Dunlavy · 02-16-2005, 07:34 PM

Would this not lead into a debate about what killing is? Many times have there been debates about the difference between killing and murder. I see both as negative while many of my friends would nix abortion because they believe it to be murder, and not just "killing".

Apparently to my friends, you can kill someone on a battlefield, with no thought or plan and it'd be alright, but if you plan to kill them before-hand, such as murderr, having the intention of killing them, that would be bad.

But in the end, when wars start and you are put on the battlefield, don't all soldiers have the intentions and plot to kill the "enemy"? Is there a difference at all, or are they just making excuses for their bloodlust not being sin?

I'm not against abortion because there are factors that most of the pro-life people can't put into their own context. I've grown up with friends being abused, molested, etc. etc. Their biggest fear was having a child, and if that wasn't enough, the pain of just having it taken away because she can't take care of it. It's her life, her body, her child. Not everyone has the blessing of being in a situation when they can take care of a child, should they still have to bear through child-birth for the sole-purpose of it being taken away?

Happy Monkey · 02-17-2005, 08:07 AM

From another post:

An Estonian anti-abortion ad (I think): Smoking chicks and hatching chicks

02-15-2005, 04:47 PM	#166
mrnoodle bent Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: under the weather Posts: 2,656	petrol added, match lit................. __________________ Sìn a nall na cuaranan sin. -- Cha mhór is fheairrde thu iad, tha iad coltach ri cat air a dhathadh

02-15-2005, 09:55 PM	#168
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	While there's a lot that OC and I don't agree on, we on the same page here. Tissue or fetus, it's a baby. I think I posted elsewhere in the thread about the pro-abortion/pro-choice semantic game. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

02-15-2005, 10:30 PM	#170
BigV Goon Squad Leader Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,063	the core question is I posted this in another thread where I thought it was on topic but the argument roared on without me. The jumping off point was whether or not abortion is murder. It speaks to when personhood begins. I think it is appropriate here. The core question For a murder to happen, a person has to be killed. If the an abortion is defined as murder, and the victim as a person, then much, much more should change to be consistent with the stance that the rights of the fetus/embryo/zygote include more that just protection from murder. I find the prospect that the abortion of a zygote, while certainly “alive”, should, could be considered “murder” as sensible as the prospect that a woman carrying this zygote should be counted as two people in any other circumstance. If she drinks, smokes, or does any other legal physical activities minors are prohibited from, is she breaking the law? If “it’s” a person, and murder-able, why--no--how can the discussion stop there? Which brings come to… There question in the abortion debate: "When does human personhood begin?" A description of all viewpoints http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_when.htm This is a calm, reasoned, informed discussion of the facts and opinions on all sides. I do not know of a “bright line” that separates one side from the other. I expect that search for such a line will be futile and acrimonious, because such a line does not exist. It is a range, not a point. At either end of the spectrum, the decision is clear, but in the immortal words of Kevin Kline in A Fish Called Wanda, “What was that part in the middle?”. The middle (range) is the part where lots of stuff happens, including personhood. That’s where the answer lies, along a continuum. After all, we’re human beings, taking nine months to develop. For me the emphasis here is on the being, as an active verb, as well as a noun. We don’t talk of dead people as “human was’es” or of a pregnant woman’s baby as a “human will-be’s”. In the Roe v Wade decision, dividing the pregnancy into trimesters seems a wise, Solomonic decision, the best possible resolution in a minefield of difficult choices. To consider the independent viability of the fetus in the first trimester to be approximately zero, the court concluded that the decision was a medical judgment to be decided by the woman and her physician. In the third trimester where viability is much more likely permitted the court to consider a fetus more like a person and entitled to more recognition as such. The search for a single marker to define personhood, and from that murder, and medical procedure and everything in between is doomed. Saying “I’m pregnant” doesn’t work in carpool lanes either, (except in California, predictably). http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20041122.html __________________ Yours, __________________ Be Just and Fear Not.

02-16-2005, 08:56 AM	#172
mrnoodle bent Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: under the weather Posts: 2,656	You're cells, but you're presumably also a fully grown human adult. I think the sticking point with me is that, while I'm radically pro-life (who ISN'T pro-life?), I would never do any of the things that the militant anti-abortionists do, but I'm lumped in with them. I'm not going to feign offense over being called "radical". I was answering UT's analogy with one that I thought was equally excessive and silly. And for the record, I'm not hypocritical. I think pregnant women smoking or doing drugs when they know the effect on the baby constitutes child abuse, and maybe attempted murder. I think abortion is the killing of a living human (but I won't go so far as to call it murder - there are justifiable reasons for ending pregnancy). People are so afraid that some religious nut is going to tell them how to live their lives that they fail to realize that there are real people on the other side of the argument. I don't give a rat's ass what you do with your body or your ovaries or what the hell ever. But if I really think that's a person living inside of you, wouldn't I be remiss if I didn't speak out in his/her defense when no one else would? You'd do the same thing for a dog, but a human life somehow isn't that valuable. I don't get it. __________________ Sìn a nall na cuaranan sin. -- Cha mhór is fheairrde thu iad, tha iad coltach ri cat air a dhathadh

02-16-2005, 09:51 AM	#174
dar512 dar512 is now Pete Zicato Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago suburb Posts: 4,968	BigV - Your post is insightful and well reasoned. And will be ignored. What's going on here isn't really debate. It's more -- demolition derby. __________________ "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain." -- Friedrich Schiller

02-16-2005, 11:42 AM	#177
mrnoodle bent Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: under the weather Posts: 2,656	That was apparent by the title. Everyone always leaves miffed from this argument. __________________ Sìn a nall na cuaranan sin. -- Cha mhór is fheairrde thu iad, tha iad coltach ri cat air a dhathadh

02-16-2005, 07:34 PM	#179
Dunlavy High Propagandist Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Forgotten Grove Posts: 117	Would this not lead into a debate about what killing is? Many times have there been debates about the difference between killing and murder. I see both as negative while many of my friends would nix abortion because they believe it to be murder, and not just "killing". Apparently to my friends, you can kill someone on a battlefield, with no thought or plan and it'd be alright, but if you plan to kill them before-hand, such as murderr, having the intention of killing them, that would be bad. But in the end, when wars start and you are put on the battlefield, don't all soldiers have the intentions and plot to kill the "enemy"? Is there a difference at all, or are they just making excuses for their bloodlust not being sin? I'm not against abortion because there are factors that most of the pro-life people can't put into their own context. I've grown up with friends being abused, molested, etc. etc. Their biggest fear was having a child, and if that wasn't enough, the pain of just having it taken away because she can't take care of it. It's her life, her body, her child. Not everyone has the blessing of being in a situation when they can take care of a child, should they still have to bear through child-birth for the sole-purpose of it being taken away? __________________ "Two roads divirged in the wood and I, I took the one less travelled by, and that has made all the difference" -Robert Frost "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" -Old proverb

02-17-2005, 08:07 AM	#180
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	From another post: An Estonian anti-abortion ad (I think): Smoking chicks and hatching chicks __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

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