OMG! Indiana is filled with crazies...

[BrianR]

IM and Classic, agreeing? What is the world coming to?


I will disagree with the both of you while offering more information. WPATH standards (the standards for treating transsexuals) do not permit a child that age to take any medications or surgeries whatsoever. The child must demonstrate years and years of gender variance and comfort in their preferred role before being prescribed (in this case) puberty-blockers only. Full-on cross gender drug therapy is not given until after a long time of therapy and thought.

Transsexuals do not "choose" to be this way. Who would? I surely didn't! Does anyone REALLY think that we would choose a lifetime of bigotry, hatred, discrimination and sometimes even outright assault and murder? Just for being who we are? Most of us "late bloomers" are already (in my case) fully masculinized and we will not be able to erase those vestiges.

I cannot hide my height, large (for a female) hands and feet and certain other traits traditionally associated with men such as wide shoulders and narrow hips. Nothing will change those. So I will live my life with the spectre of being "clocked" daily. As things stand, it is legal to refuse to hire me or to fire me on the basis of my perceived gender. Surgical modifications or not, legal documents notwithstanding, I will always live in fear of being outed.

Now, had this condition been diagnosed in childhood (we are born with the condition, it cannot be chosen, like a lifestyle)I could have stopped my male puberty and had a much more feminine body when I began female hormone treatment. After the proper therapy of course. No one who wishes to transition can just do it without a therapist OK. Except those who do it on the sly and order their hormones over the internet. Which can be a horror story.

These children are exhibiting symptoms of a disease (oh yes it is!) and their parents are doing exactly the right thing. It is possible that a child might want to explore the opposite role, but most children are not accepting of the slightest flaw in another child. Parents, you should be acutely aware of this if you ever had a child who wears glasses, has red hair, is obese, has a visible stoma or colostomy, has a winemark on their face, or other defect.

These gender-variant children are being allowed to fall into their proper role naturally and live in comfort and security, something us older girls didn't have. Back in the day (just a few short years ago), such things were hushed up, "corrected", usually by abuse, the child running away from home to an uncertain future or even the child committing suicide, the root cause hushed up.

To my way of thinking, this is progress. We, as a society, are learninng that it IS possible to have a faulty gene that causes our bodies to develop incorrectly with respect to our brains. The fight for our rights, the same ones that other people take for granted, will continue until we are safe from official discrimination. We've been there all along; we are simply more visible now because we CHOOSE to be. This condition is not more common now, only more common than you ever knew!

That little girl scout had my full support and I even bought their cookies even though I *hate* them. My dogs loved them. I only bought thte cookies because I wanted to show the Scouts that not everyone is a bigot. And to do my part to ameliorate that totally stupid cookie boycott that some hyper-sensitive folks are doing. I really couldn't afford them, but I bought what I could. My dogs enjoyed the new treats just the same.

Love

Pamela

[Ibby]

A-


-Fucking-

-MEN.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by BrianR

IM and Classic, agreeing?
I will disagree with the both of you while offering more information.

Fair enough.

Now, had this condition been diagnosed in childhood I could have stopped my male puberty and had a much more feminine body when I began female hormone treatment. After the proper therapy of course.

How do you propose we "diagnose" this condition?
Is that even possible?
What if the diagnosis is wrong?
What is this therapy you speak of?
I'm honestly just asking.

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by classicman

How do you propose we "diagnose" this condition?
Is that even possible?

Why is self-diagnosis suspect?

Why do we assume that fully male and female are the only legitimate options? Why is it a problem if a child later decides to present or identify with the gender associated with their birth sex?

Aside from the affects of hormonal replacement on sexual characteristics like, um, penis size and erectile function, what problems are there with a person's gender identity being fluid, utterly self-identified, and not subject to being second-guessed, by a therapist or otherwise?

[classicman]

Sigh, I dunno - Lemme think for a NANOSECOND.
How is a 3 year old gonna self diagnose?

[Ibby]

By saying, Mommy, I'm not a little boy, I'm a little girl, please treat me like I want to be treated and respect my identity?

[infinite monkey]

Classic, here is what I propose, since everyone is so keen on the fact we agreed:

Classic and Infi smiled sagely, amused and confounded, then turned and walked off into the sunset.

The End

(when they say how someone "presents" all I can think of are monkey butts. You know, they're all colorful and stuff when they present them to teh other monkehs. A three year old isn't 'presenting' him (or her) self for anything.)

And I'm out...

[BrianR]

Originally Posted by classicman

Fair enough.

How do you propose we "diagnose" this condition?
Is that even possible?

Sure is. This is the only self-diagnosed medical condition that I am aware of. Even my doctors (internist, endocrinologist, two therapists) agree.

What if the diagnosis is wrong?

If we are wrong, we usually find out during therapy, which is required if we intend to transition the "right" way. Any changes are reversible in early stages. And in general, hormone replacement therapy is diagnostic in itself. If you are meant to be the opposite gender, the new hormones make you feel good and "right". If not, you will tend to come unglued, so to speak. It will feel "wrong".

What is this therapy you speak of?

Therapy is just what it sounds like. Therapy with a trained gender specialist. Yes, there is training for that and no, not just ANY therapist will do, it needs to be a specialist.

This is an example of a trained therapist. If the therapist is not trained to deal with trans issues, they should refuse treatment and refer the patient to a more qualified person.
I'm honestly just asking.

These are the written standards as followed by most professionals.

I hope this helps you understand a bit better. Feel free to ask me anything (within reason )

[wolf]

Yeah, she kinda got annoyed when I asked if she was going to lose the ability to parallel park and if that was an acceptable trade-off for the willingness to stop and ask for directions.

[Ibby]

I, on the other hand, unsurprisingly, take a slightly more militant view than Pamela. I reject the notion that therapy should be a must in the process - I view it as simply a hormone imbalance.

If an XX, female-identified person had an abundance of testosterone, and a lack of estrogens, they would develop more masculinized - and would not have to seek therapy to convince a doctor to help them manage their hormones to the level they want. It's almost just a cosmetic point. Why, then, should my almost-just-cosmetic decision to take anti-androgens, with or without female hormones, be subject to oversight by anyone but me?

[Undertoad]

Why, then, should my almost-just-cosmetic decision to take anti-androgens, with or without female hormones, be subject to oversight by anyone but me?

lawyers

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by wolf

Yeah, she kinda got annoyed when I asked if she was going to lose the ability to parallel park and if that was an acceptable trade-off for the willingness to stop and ask for directions.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Ibram

By saying, Mommy, I'm not a little boy, I'm a little girl, please treat me like I want to be treated and respect my identity?

Chyeah... OK.

Originally Posted by BrianR

These are the written standards as followed by most professionals.

None of those seem to apply to a 3 YEAR OLD. Did I miss it in there somewhere?

[Lamplighter]

Maybe this on page 12:

Children as young as age two may show features that could indicate gender dysphoria.
They may express a wish to be of the other sex and be unhappy
about their physical sex characteristics and functions.
In addition, they may prefer clothes, toys, and games that are commonly associated
with the other sex and prefer playing with other-sex peers.

There appears to be heterogeneity in these features:
Some children demonstrate extremely gender nonconforming behavior and wishes,
accompanied by persistent and severe discomfort with their primary sex characteristics.
In other children, these characteristics are less intense or only partially present

<snip>

In most children, gender dysphoria will disappear before or early in puberty.
However, in some children these feelings will intensify and body aversion will develop
or increase as they become adolescents and their secondary sex characteristics develop

[classicman]

as young as age two may show...that could...may express...they may...commonly associated ...

That definitive enough for you to start injecting drugs or medicating?


Damn ... shoulda listened to IM... (shrug)