8/1/2002: Iranian male dancer detained - Page 2

Bigsarge · 08-02-2002, 10:33 AM

President Bush (I never used that term for Clinton) is exactly the man I want in office. Can we help it if the low life, scum sucking, demagogs in congress, both Rep's and Dem's, can't get off their fat asses and do something right for once, he wouldn't have to push so hard for so many things. Makes you wonder doesn't it, what could be next. Could it be an invasion of Iraq (been there done that...hated it, too many diaper heads) or could it be a TAX CUT for all Americans. Now wouldnt that be special!

Bigsarge · 08-02-2002, 10:40 AM

Very eloquently put. I keep an eye on Iran each time it pops up somewhere. It seems as if a radical shift may be in the making, but I give it a good 5 years before there is any REAL change. The current mullahs have to die before we see anything happening. Could we help the process along, undoubtadely, but it will cost us more money than I believe our pres is willing to commit. Have you ever noticed how we can't get a decent tax cut from congress, yet they throw money all over the world to "help" people?

juju · 08-02-2002, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tobiasly
Always? Really? I've known a few religious wackos who were quite content in just being wacko. Your hyperbole falls flat.

To continue an earlier theme, you sound rather intolerant of religious wackos. Don't you think tolerance is a good thing?

Yeah, i'm pretty intolerant of religous wackos. I try to be tolerant of other people, except when they're trying to screw with my life. I mean, honestly, there's always a religious wacko somewhere trying to tell me about something that I can't do, or trying to get legislation passed so that i'll go to jail if I do something I enjoy. I'd love to call a truce: They let me do what I want, and I let them do what they want. Many of them would never agree to that, though.

I live in the Bible Belt, so I get extra exposure to this. I'm fine with those religious people who leave me alone. By my definition, though, those people aren't wackos.

Ehh.. sorry to go off topic. :)

warch · 08-02-2002, 12:59 PM

I'm fascinated by the more moderate Iran's young model of religious- quasi democratic government. The complete marriage of THE church and state. Its important to be aware of the struggles there- From our dancing friend to the recent clamp down on women seeking education abroad- we can learn.

I feel its my duty as a citizen to guard as best I can the constitutional rights that are being eroded with justifications of God's blessing and the vision of a "compassionate conservativism". Power needs to be checked and rechecked- thats how our republic has found its way. And Ashcroft wields possibly greater power and influence as AG, even after his constituancy decided that he did not represent their views, voting him out of his legislative seat.

Griff · 08-04-2002, 09:14 AM

If Bigsarge is still here, I'd like him to weigh in here. I think we need a conservatives view on the question there. What does it mean to you, to be free?

joquarky · 08-10-2002, 03:38 AM

Quote:

Like you say, tolerance should be valued, but you're not showing a lot of tolerance for his beliefs.

Well, you're not showing a lot of tolerance for Undertoad's beliefs about Ashcroft's beliefs :p

Bigsarge · 08-12-2002, 10:56 AM

Morning all, sorry, had to be gone for a few days. Purchasing managers jobs are never done. The great thing about tolerance is that I can choose when, where and what to be tolerant of. I thank my God that he has given me a wonderful mind, that I control and that I use to make decisions. Please don't even attempt to push tolerance down my throat, you will awaken a sleeping giant. I worked at a midwestern university where I refused to take "Multi-cultural Relationship Awareness" classes and was called some of the most in-tolerant names you can imagine. What a crock, multi-culturalism... I have lived, fought, played with, drank, laughed and cried with men from almost every race and ethnicity (what a nice word) that America has to offer. I learned how to be tolerant of others before tolerance was shoved down the throats of Americans. You know what tolerance is, it is being able to control your emotions through times of interacting with people you just want to throw into the dumpster. Freedom to me is having the ability to decide what is right, and best for MY family. It means allowing the government to have a bit of a deeper presence in my life, if it will protect my family, my neighbors and most importantly, my country. It is being able to call or write my representatives and tell them exactly how I feel without fear of reprisal. Most importantly, to me, it is being able to worship whenever, wherever and however I want, without fear of my door being busted down by the "religious police". We live in the greatest nation that has ever, since the beginning of humanity, been. I hear people say that we are not tolerant of those less fortunate than us. I feel for those who suffer needlessly, but if you truly look at the suffering in the world, it has been caused, primarily by governmental entities, to include our own. Our job as human beings is to love our brothers and sisters around the world. That does not mean that I have to like what they do, and especially like what they stand for but to be willing to stand up for the rights of every citizen of this world. See, I have tolerance for everyone, as long as they believe what I do. Freedom is being allowed to get onto the internet and being allowed to spout out, without worrying who is seeing it. That is why communism failed so miserably, everyone was equal in the eyes of everyone else. Thank God that we live in a country that has rich and poor, sick and healthy, Christian and Muslim, sane and insane. Be thankful for what has been given each of us, the ability to live in America, and all the freedom's that are associated with that pleasure. Not everything in this world is free, never will be, but at least I live in a place where I can decide for myself. (Lookout.... I just fell off my soap box.)

Xugumad · 08-12-2002, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bigsarge
We live in the greatest nation that has ever, since the beginning of humanity, been.

I am happy that you genuinely seem to believe that. Don't forget, however, that the citizens of many other nations believe the same about their countries. It's just a belief, nothing else.

As long you realize that it's just a belief, and not an actual fact, and as long as you don't try to base your actions on that belief ("Because America is the greatest nation ever, we can do this, and we shall do that, and that's our justification for it."), there won't be any trouble. If you do base actions affecting the citizens of other countries on that rationale ("In order to protect our great country and the American Way of Life.."), however, issues will arise.

On a purely personal note, I do agree that there are many things that are pretty good about the US.

Quote:

See, I have tolerance for everyone, as long as they believe what I do.

That's the exact opposite of tolerance. Tolerance is being OK with the fact that there are people and ideas around that are contrary to your aims and ideas. You don't agree with them, but you don't oppose them either.

Being only tolerant of things you believe in as well has another name. (since, by implication, you are intolerant of things you don't believe in)

(By the way, and slightly off-topic, this is also an important point relating to 'tolerance' and 'acceptance', which aren't the same thing: You tolerate things you disagree with, and which you find objectionable. You accept things that you give equal footing in your considerations. To give another example, that's the difference between tolerating homosexuals and accepting them. The majority of most rich first-world countries' populations nowadays tolerate homosexuality, and homosexual behaviour. They do not, however, accept it, i.e. giving it equal consideration as an accepted means of conduct, it's merely tolerated. Thus the abundance of anti-homosexual practices laws still on the books, the refusal to accept homosexual marriages in the US, etc.)

Quote:

Freedom is being allowed to get onto the internet and being allowed to spout out, without worrying who is seeing it.

Freedom shouldn't need to be allowed; especially not pertaining to the flow of thoughts and expression. I find it worrying that you need to emphasize how generous XYZ is being in allowing free expression and thought.

Has thought-crime been institutionalized yet?

X.

PS: (As yet another tolerance/acceptance example, I tolerate racist fundamentalists; I don't believe that they are right, and I believe that with reasonable education racism and fundamentalism can be eliminated, but I tolerate them as an aspect of society, even though I could probably put burning crosses in their front yards, just to see what they'd feel like being harassed. I could never accept such bigotry, however.)

08-12-2002, 12:59 PM

And on another personal note, this may be the first post you've ever written that I 100% agree with.

Another tangent - they finally seem to be making some headway toward same-sex marriages. In California, it was ruled that same-sex partners have the same rights as opposite-sex partners when it comes to the death of a partner. It's not the whole enchilada, but it's a good step in the right direction.

Bigsarge · 08-12-2002, 05:34 PM

Ladies and gentleman, the time has come to stop beating this dead horse. WE all have our personal views on this dancer and his own problems, just as we have our views on this glorious country we live in. One where we are free to choose as we wish those whom will serve as our mouthpieces in the hallowed halls of congress (as well as in alot of dark damp corners around town - lived in D.C 4-years, saw alot that you would not want to know). I love my country, not afraid to say it, and would die to protect my family first, then my country. Love my freedom and all the responsibilities it gives me. Love all of you for the absolutely fascinating posts I have read. Keep it up and keep it cool and always remember, don't sweat the small stuff, and everything is small stuff.

Xugumad · 08-12-2002, 06:03 PM

Mea culpa,

I fell for what in retrospect is fairly obvious flamebait by (title "Provocateur") Bigsarge.

His last message, however is an impressive barrage of cliche metaphors and evasive platitudes.

... "beating the dead horse"... "glorious country we live in" ... "hallowed halls of congress"... "dark damp corners"... "keep it up and keep it cool" ... "don't sweat the small stuff and everything is small stuff".

Are you quoting all of that straight out of the latest copy of Us magazine or TV Guide or whatever trivial publication of the day you use as a shield?

Anyway, I'm happy to admit you got me there. I nearly took you seriously, right up to the point where you straightforwardly said how utterly intolerant you are (see my previous posting), and then sidestepped that completely to finish the thread with a winking smilie.

Nice use of the old standby of 'we all have personal views, it's a dead horse', as well. You must be a seasoned and experienced Usenet troll. Maybe you were brought here by the attention the Cellar occasionally gets on Fark or Slashdot. (either through Tony's adverts or Tony's .sig on /.)

X.

Undertoad · 08-12-2002, 07:11 PM

May be, but "Provocateur" is one of the auto-titles I made up. Anyone with 9 posts gets that title (I think it's 9).

Bigsarge · 08-13-2002, 09:59 AM

How dare you acuse me of reading such trash as Us and/or TV Guide. I am deeply offended. I will have you know that all of my pertinant information comes directly from the only sanctioned source that our government allows each civil employee to read during their work day. I am referring, of course, to The National Enquirer. Where would this country be without the Enquirer. My God you would never have known that JFK has a nightly meeting with G.W. BTY - did you see GW on the news last night clearing brush off of his ranch in TX? This is a man's man, with perhaps the smallest chain saw I have ever seen. What I noticed most was all of the other people standing around while he did all the work. Must be government employees (or Democrats.... Ouch!!)
Lastly, what good are cliches and metaphors if you can't use them now and then. I learned them from the cream of the crop of education at Georgetown U. My illiterate professors, who are as communist as you can get. Oh how many nights I sat in class and wished for a poisonous dart gun...

Xugumad · 08-13-2002, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bigsarge
How dare you acuse me of reading such trash as Us and/or TV Guide. I am deeply offended. I will have you know that all of my pertinant information comes directly from the only sanctioned source that our government allows each civil employee to read during their work day. I am referring, of course, to The National Enquirer. Where would this country be without the Enquirer. My God you would never have known that JFK has a nightly meeting with G.W. BTY - did you see GW on the news last night clearing brush off of his ranch in TX? This is a man's man, with perhaps the smallest chain saw I have ever seen. What I noticed most was all of the other people standing around while he did all the work. Must be government employees (or Democrats.... Ouch!!)
Lastly, what good are cliches and metaphors if you can't use them now and then. I learned them from the cream of the crop of education at Georgetown U. My illiterate professors, who are as communist as you can get. Oh how many nights I sat in class and wished for a poisonous dart gun...

Ok, that was a good one. By the last post I suspected that this was someone like Undertoad or dhamsaic (just guessing) playing a practical joke with a secondary username, goading the more excitable users into a frenzy. Either way, it was pretty damn funny.

Anyway, here's <a href="http://salon.com/comics/tomo/2002/07/01/tomo/story.jpg">something</a> for you to do, in case you ever feel doubts about your loyalty...

X.

<center><IMG SRC="http://salon.com/comics/tomo/2002/07/01/tomo/story.jpg">
</center>

Tobiasly · 08-13-2002, 10:22 AM

I tried to take your quiz, but the choices were too confusing. I think I voted for Pat Buchanan, but I'm not sure.

08-04-2002, 09:14 AM	#20
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	If Bigsarge is still here, I'd like him to weigh in here. I think we need a conservatives view on the question there. What does it mean to you, to be free? __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

08-12-2002, 10:56 AM	#22
Bigsarge Defender of Good Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Denver Posts: 19	Tolerance and Freedom Morning all, sorry, had to be gone for a few days. Purchasing managers jobs are never done. The great thing about tolerance is that I can choose when, where and what to be tolerant of. I thank my God that he has given me a wonderful mind, that I control and that I use to make decisions. Please don't even attempt to push tolerance down my throat, you will awaken a sleeping giant. I worked at a midwestern university where I refused to take "Multi-cultural Relationship Awareness" classes and was called some of the most in-tolerant names you can imagine. What a crock, multi-culturalism... I have lived, fought, played with, drank, laughed and cried with men from almost every race and ethnicity (what a nice word) that America has to offer. I learned how to be tolerant of others before tolerance was shoved down the throats of Americans. You know what tolerance is, it is being able to control your emotions through times of interacting with people you just want to throw into the dumpster. Freedom to me is having the ability to decide what is right, and best for MY family. It means allowing the government to have a bit of a deeper presence in my life, if it will protect my family, my neighbors and most importantly, my country. It is being able to call or write my representatives and tell them exactly how I feel without fear of reprisal. Most importantly, to me, it is being able to worship whenever, wherever and however I want, without fear of my door being busted down by the "religious police". We live in the greatest nation that has ever, since the beginning of humanity, been. I hear people say that we are not tolerant of those less fortunate than us. I feel for those who suffer needlessly, but if you truly look at the suffering in the world, it has been caused, primarily by governmental entities, to include our own. Our job as human beings is to love our brothers and sisters around the world. That does not mean that I have to like what they do, and especially like what they stand for but to be willing to stand up for the rights of every citizen of this world. See, I have tolerance for everyone, as long as they believe what I do. Freedom is being allowed to get onto the internet and being allowed to spout out, without worrying who is seeing it. That is why communism failed so miserably, everyone was equal in the eyes of everyone else. Thank God that we live in a country that has rich and poor, sick and healthy, Christian and Muslim, sane and insane. Be thankful for what has been given each of us, the ability to live in America, and all the freedom's that are associated with that pleasure. Not everything in this world is free, never will be, but at least I live in a place where I can decide for myself. (Lookout.... I just fell off my soap box.)

08-12-2002, 05:34 PM	#25
Bigsarge Defender of Good Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Denver Posts: 19	Let the Dead Horse lie. Ladies and gentleman, the time has come to stop beating this dead horse. WE all have our personal views on this dancer and his own problems, just as we have our views on this glorious country we live in. One where we are free to choose as we wish those whom will serve as our mouthpieces in the hallowed halls of congress (as well as in alot of dark damp corners around town - lived in D.C 4-years, saw alot that you would not want to know). I love my country, not afraid to say it, and would die to protect my family first, then my country. Love my freedom and all the responsibilities it gives me. Love all of you for the absolutely fascinating posts I have read. Keep it up and keep it cool and always remember, don't sweat the small stuff, and everything is small stuff.

08-12-2002, 06:03 PM	#26
Xugumad Punisher of Good Deeds Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 183	Mea Culpa Mea culpa, I fell for what in retrospect is fairly obvious flamebait by (title "Provocateur") Bigsarge. His last message, however is an impressive barrage of cliche metaphors and evasive platitudes. ... "beating the dead horse"... "glorious country we live in" ... "hallowed halls of congress"... "dark damp corners"... "keep it up and keep it cool" ... "don't sweat the small stuff and everything is small stuff". Are you quoting all of that straight out of the latest copy of Us magazine or TV Guide or whatever trivial publication of the day you use as a shield? Anyway, I'm happy to admit you got me there. I nearly took you seriously, right up to the point where you straightforwardly said how utterly intolerant you are (see my previous posting), and then sidestepped that completely to finish the thread with a winking smilie. Nice use of the old standby of 'we all have personal views, it's a dead horse', as well. You must be a seasoned and experienced Usenet troll. Maybe you were brought here by the attention the Cellar occasionally gets on Fark or Slashdot. (either through Tony's adverts or Tony's .sig on /.) X.

08-02-2002, 10:33 AM	#16
Bigsarge Defender of Good Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Denver Posts: 19	President Bush (I never used that term for Clinton) is exactly the man I want in office. Can we help it if the low life, scum sucking, demagogs in congress, both Rep's and Dem's, can't get off their fat asses and do something right for once, he wouldn't have to push so hard for so many things. Makes you wonder doesn't it, what could be next. Could it be an invasion of Iraq (been there done that...hated it, too many diaper heads) or could it be a TAX CUT for all Americans. Now wouldnt that be special!

08-02-2002, 10:40 AM	#17
Bigsarge Defender of Good Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Denver Posts: 19	Very eloquently put. I keep an eye on Iran each time it pops up somewhere. It seems as if a radical shift may be in the making, but I give it a good 5 years before there is any REAL change. The current mullahs have to die before we see anything happening. Could we help the process along, undoubtadely, but it will cost us more money than I believe our pres is willing to commit. Have you ever noticed how we can't get a decent tax cut from congress, yet they throw money all over the world to "help" people?

08-02-2002, 12:59 PM	#19
warch lurkin old school Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,796	I'm fascinated by the more moderate Iran's young model of religious- quasi democratic government. The complete marriage of THE church and state. Its important to be aware of the struggles there- From our dancing friend to the recent clamp down on women seeking education abroad- we can learn. I feel its my duty as a citizen to guard as best I can the constitutional rights that are being eroded with justifications of God's blessing and the vision of a "compassionate conservativism". Power needs to be checked and rechecked- thats how our republic has found its way. And Ashcroft wields possibly greater power and influence as AG, even after his constituancy decided that he did not represent their views, voting him out of his legislative seat.

08-12-2002, 12:59 PM	#24
dave Guest Posts: n/a	And on another personal note, this may be the first post you've ever written that I 100% agree with. Another tangent - they finally seem to be making some headway toward same-sex marriages. In California, it was ruled that same-sex partners have the same rights as opposite-sex partners when it comes to the death of a partner. It's not the whole enchilada, but it's a good step in the right direction.

08-12-2002, 07:11 PM	#27
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	May be, but "Provocateur" is one of the auto-titles I made up. Anyone with 9 posts gets that title (I think it's 9).

08-13-2002, 09:59 AM	#28
Bigsarge Defender of Good Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Denver Posts: 19	How dare you acuse me of reading such trash as Us and/or TV Guide. I am deeply offended. I will have you know that all of my pertinant information comes directly from the only sanctioned source that our government allows each civil employee to read during their work day. I am referring, of course, to The National Enquirer. Where would this country be without the Enquirer. My God you would never have known that JFK has a nightly meeting with G.W. BTY - did you see GW on the news last night clearing brush off of his ranch in TX? This is a man's man, with perhaps the smallest chain saw I have ever seen. What I noticed most was all of the other people standing around while he did all the work. Must be government employees (or Democrats.... Ouch!!) Lastly, what good are cliches and metaphors if you can't use them now and then. I learned them from the cream of the crop of education at Georgetown U. My illiterate professors, who are as communist as you can get. Oh how many nights I sat in class and wished for a poisonous dart gun...

08-13-2002, 10:22 AM	#30
Tobiasly hot Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Jeffersonville, IN (near Louisville) Posts: 892	I tried to take your quiz, but the choices were too confusing. I think I voted for Pat Buchanan, but I'm not sure.

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