Progression of a Musical Idea

Flint · 09-27-2007, 12:37 PM

The idea that a drum kit can be used as a pitched instrument, on which one can actually play melodies. Obviously, the idea has always existed in Jazz, with its high-pitched toms and bass drums, played wide open to ring out a true note. And there's been guys like Ginger Baker, who introduced some pretty mind-blowing, polyrhythmic, melodic drum kit work with Cream; using two differently-pitched bass drums for example. Then you've got Marching Band drumlines, with quad toms and tuned bass drum basslines. And traditional stuff, like Japanese Taiko drummers.

But I think the idea really broke free of convention (or at least became very prominent in my own mind) with Terry Bozzio, former Zappa drummer, currently touring, among other things, as a solo drum artist. Bozzio cites the very (relatively) recent invention of what is known as the drum kit, as a motivating factor in finding out how far the boundaries of its use can be expanded. He plays "mini-orchestras" on an array of tuned toms and pitched cymbals. The entire field of "drum kit" drumming, as relates to time subdivisions, sticking patterns and the like, is simply an underscore for his exploration of melodic ideas and overlapping limb-independent patterns.

He's not the only guy doing this kind of thing, but nobody else is doing quite what he's doing. He spent his entire career building the chops and confidence to strike out into this new territory, and this is where the point of my thread comes in:

Bozzio plays this new sh!t, blows my mind, and I spend years trying to build the skills I need to even begin to do some of it. I finally get a toehold on this new ground, and in effect I've absorbed the summation, the statement, of his life's work. I'm not saying I can play just like Bozzio, I'm saying the generation of kids who grow up listening to what the generation before them played, and imitate that, continue a constant cycle of raising the bar. Because the next generation that comes along will take this skill-set as part of the basic practice, and proceed to go beyond it.

What made me think of this is, simply, that my kids will grow up thinking that the drum kit is something that you play little melodies on, interwoven with defining the beat structure. They will grow up hearing the kinds of things that blew my mind, and to them, these things will be routine. And their generation will do something you and I have never dreamed of.

Undertoad · 09-27-2007, 01:21 PM

Did you hear that Bill Bruford's Earthworks? He was playing Real Jazz(TM) with an electronic kit usually tuned to produce notey-sounding beats. Blew me away...

Flint · 09-27-2007, 01:27 PM

Bruford was one of the first drummers to catch my ear, with Yes. I haven't heard Earthworks, I believe they just released an anthology.

Have you heard Zappa's "Jazz From Hell" where Zappa and Steve Vai play MIDI guitars, and you never hear a "guitar" note for the whole album?

Incidentally, have you seen how Bruford sets up his kit now?

Griff · 09-27-2007, 02:48 PM

I caught Future Man doing his thing about a month ago. A lot of sampled stuff sounded new and different to me but, I'm a hillbilly.

Flint · 09-27-2007, 02:59 PM

If that was a Bela Fleck show, then at least there was some banjo to soothe your beleaguered, hillbilly ears.

Hey, I heard Bela Fleck was touring with...who was it...Chick Corea? Is that the show you caught?

dar512 · 09-27-2007, 03:01 PM

Steel drums and the xylophone have been playing melodies for quite a while now. Tuned percussion was originally done on different length logs and is probably one of the oldest methods of making music.

Flint · 09-27-2007, 03:04 PM

True, all good points dar512. What I meant was, specifically, the "drum kit" as in the thing Ringo plays, but having it not just go "thump/whack" ...

dar512 · 09-27-2007, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

True, all good points dar512. What I meant was, specifically, the "drum kit" as in the thing Ringo plays, but having it not just go "thump/whack" ...

I could probably enjoy that for a bit.

Griff · 09-27-2007, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

If that was a Bela Fleck show, then at least there was some banjo to soothe your beleaguered, hillbilly ears.

Hey, I heard Bela Fleck was touring with...who was it...Chick Corea? Is that the show you caught?

I think that was maybe last year? I believe they released an album. I hit the normal Flecktones lineup. Not lame, not even a little.

Ibby · 09-27-2007, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

Have you heard Zappa's "Jazz From Hell" where Zappa and Steve Vai play MIDI guitars, and you never hear a "guitar" note for the whole album?

Actually there's no instruments at all on the album. It was all done on Zappa's computer of some sort; all digitally created with the intention of being impossible to play otherwise. It's really pretty rad, but nowadays, anybody could do it. 's all just computer.

dar512 · 10-04-2007, 01:36 PM

Flint - here's a quote I thought you might like:

Monk encouraged me to emancipate the drums from their subservient role as timekeepers.
~ Max Roach

Flint · 10-04-2007, 01:46 PM

Nice quote.

I agree with what you said "I could probably enjoy that for a bit." (emphasis mine) ... There is a time and a place for eveything, and of course the most important part of drumming in popular music styles is the support function, providing a framework. Of course, once that is covered, you have the "embellishment" aspect. Like Roach suggests, a drummer often needs a bandleader to actively encourage their more creative explorations. At least it's my feeling that a drummer should play the fundamentals, by default.

@Ibram: Wow, all this time I had believed what someone told me, that Zappa and Vai were playing guitars with MIDI pickups. And it turns out it was all done on a Synclavier.

Bitman · 10-17-2007, 04:29 PM

Flint · 10-17-2007, 09:02 PM

Nice links.

In the Scott's Drum Center clips (haven't seen those before, thanks!) you see his newer tom configuration; three rows of 8" mini toms going around to two rows of floor toms. He's using DW's VLT (vertical low timbre) shells so he can use smaller tom sizes at the bottom.

I have the Bozzio/Chad Wackerman "duets part two" video, and I found it disappointing for reasons I don't have time to get into right now.

Last thing, it's funny how he used a "mini kit" at the Zappa Plays Zappa show (great show) but it was still, to normal humans, a pretty extensive kit.

09-27-2007, 12:37 PM	#1
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Progression of a Musical Idea The idea that a drum kit can be used as a pitched instrument, on which one can actually play melodies. Obviously, the idea has always existed in Jazz, with its high-pitched toms and bass drums, played wide open to ring out a true note. And there's been guys like Ginger Baker, who introduced some pretty mind-blowing, polyrhythmic, melodic drum kit work with Cream; using two differently-pitched bass drums for example. Then you've got Marching Band drumlines, with quad toms and tuned bass drum basslines. And traditional stuff, like Japanese Taiko drummers. But I think the idea really broke free of convention (or at least became very prominent in my own mind) with Terry Bozzio, former Zappa drummer, currently touring, among other things, as a solo drum artist. Bozzio cites the very (relatively) recent invention of what is known as the drum kit, as a motivating factor in finding out how far the boundaries of its use can be expanded. He plays "mini-orchestras" on an array of tuned toms and pitched cymbals. The entire field of "drum kit" drumming, as relates to time subdivisions, sticking patterns and the like, is simply an underscore for his exploration of melodic ideas and overlapping limb-independent patterns. He's not the only guy doing this kind of thing, but nobody else is doing quite what he's doing. He spent his entire career building the chops and confidence to strike out into this new territory, and this is where the point of my thread comes in: Bozzio plays this new sh!t, blows my mind, and I spend years trying to build the skills I need to even begin to do some of it. I finally get a toehold on this new ground, and in effect I've absorbed the summation, the statement, of his life's work. I'm not saying I can play just like Bozzio, I'm saying the generation of kids who grow up listening to what the generation before them played, and imitate that, continue a constant cycle of raising the bar. Because the next generation that comes along will take this skill-set as part of the basic practice, and proceed to go beyond it. What made me think of this is, simply, that my kids will grow up thinking that the drum kit is something that you play little melodies on, interwoven with defining the beat structure. They will grow up hearing the kinds of things that blew my mind, and to them, these things will be routine. And their generation will do something you and I have never dreamed of. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

09-27-2007, 01:27 PM	#3
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Bruford was one of the first drummers to catch my ear, with Yes. I haven't heard Earthworks, I believe they just released an anthology. Have you heard Zappa's "Jazz From Hell" where Zappa and Steve Vai play MIDI guitars, and you never hear a "guitar" note for the whole album? Incidentally, have you seen how Bruford sets up his kit now? Attached Images __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

09-27-2007, 02:48 PM	#4
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	I caught Future Man doing his thing about a month ago. A lot of sampled stuff sounded new and different to me but, I'm a hillbilly. Attached Images __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

09-27-2007, 02:59 PM	#5
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	If that was a Bela Fleck show, then at least there was some banjo to soothe your beleaguered, hillbilly ears. Hey, I heard Bela Fleck was touring with...who was it...Chick Corea? Is that the show you caught? __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

09-27-2007, 03:01 PM	#6
dar512 dar512 is now Pete Zicato Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago suburb Posts: 4,968	Steel drums and the xylophone have been playing melodies for quite a while now. Tuned percussion was originally done on different length logs and is probably one of the oldest methods of making music. __________________ "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain." -- Friedrich Schiller

09-27-2007, 01:21 PM	#2
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Did you hear that Bill Bruford's Earthworks? He was playing Real Jazz(TM) with an electronic kit usually tuned to produce notey-sounding beats. Blew me away...

09-27-2007, 03:04 PM	#7
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	True, all good points dar512. What I meant was, specifically, the "drum kit" as in the thing Ringo plays, but having it not just go "thump/whack" ... __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

10-04-2007, 01:36 PM	#11
dar512 dar512 is now Pete Zicato Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago suburb Posts: 4,968	Flint - here's a quote I thought you might like: Monk encouraged me to emancipate the drums from their subservient role as timekeepers. ~ Max Roach __________________ "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain." -- Friedrich Schiller

10-04-2007, 01:46 PM	#12
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Nice quote. I agree with what you said "I could probably enjoy that for a bit." (emphasis mine) ... There is a time and a place for eveything, and of course the most important part of drumming in popular music styles is the support function, providing a framework. Of course, once that is covered, you have the "embellishment" aspect. Like Roach suggests, a drummer often needs a bandleader to actively encourage their more creative explorations. At least it's my feeling that a drummer should play the fundamentals, by default. @Ibram: Wow, all this time I had believed what someone told me, that Zappa and Vai were playing guitars with MIDI pickups. And it turns out it was all done on a Synclavier. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio** Last edited by Flint; 10-04-2007 at 01:51 PM.

10-17-2007, 04:29 PM	#13
Bitman cellar smellar Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: californy, baby! Posts: 403	Here's a good introduction to the thing he's doing now: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLARdqzrnkg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRHjGADrYsQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xir6EVkzDws At Scott's Drum Center, in parts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqLss96wP8I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZIoor6guPI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eryKoeilK9U http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N97kdlGjspE Duet with Chad Wackerman: http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/b...ackerman1.html Some Black Page: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDwRJK8bpb4 Setting up the kit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxe-SWxDEcw For comparison, here's the sort of thing he used to do: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzt6PwuQABk For more comparison, Mike Mangini (from the Videoe Clippe thread): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyaFL24Zu8c And just for fun, a little Bela Fleck: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUMGSr3b67g

10-17-2007, 09:02 PM	#14
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Nice links. In the Scott's Drum Center clips (haven't seen those before, thanks!) you see his newer tom configuration; three rows of 8" mini toms going around to two rows of floor toms. He's using DW's VLT (vertical low timbre) shells so he can use smaller tom sizes at the bottom. I have the Bozzio/Chad Wackerman "duets part two" video, and I found it disappointing for reasons I don't have time to get into right now. Last thing, it's funny how he used a "mini kit" at the Zappa Plays Zappa show (great show) but it was still, to normal humans, a pretty extensive kit. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

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