May 30, 2008: Uncontacted Indigenous People

[Shawnee123]

Originally Posted by Coign

No idea of infant mortality? Are you seriously saying they work less and have a better mortality, infant and lifespan, then we have? Do you think for a MOMENT that out of a thousand plus different cultures and tribes they somehow are different and found the fountain of youth and are living in some utopia of perfect health?

Give me back your damn bible. The earth was not created in seven days, it is not a thousand years old, dinosaur bones were not planted by god, magic doesn't work, and Xenu is not the reason you have a bunch of thetans causing the bad in your life.

It is called empirical evidence. I will agree that in history a more civilized country has been defeated by a more barbaric one, but I can not believe you really believe that civilization does not promote a better way of living.

And civilization is not created equal. There are different levels to it. We live better than the those in ramshackle "2nd World" countries. They live better than those in "3rd World" countries, and they live better than those in the mud huts in the middle of deepest Africa.

No, we are not all equal, but those of us at the top live better and those at the bottom are climbing that ladder right behind us.

Arrogance you call it? I call it read your damn history books and understand the meaning of empirical evidence. This is not a question of faith and morality, it is another example of the faithful trying to say, "Quake in the face god for his wrath shall strike down the mighty."

Well fuck your god.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Coign is railing against an argument nobody made.

lol yeah...who's he talking to? What a maroon...what an ignoranamous.

Hey dickweed, all I said was how do we know what their infant mortality rate is...they're UNCONTACTED.

Did you see this part of my post?

Oh for god's sake, next thing you know we'll be hearing from those who need to get in there and shove a bible into these people's hands lest they burn in hell forever for not knowing teh LAWD.

You can fuck my god all you want, but I'm not sure who you'll fuck because I'm not a big believer...but I think it will calm you down a bit! Now pull your pink panties out of your ass and your post out of your tail.

cuckoo cuckoo

[DanaC]

Are you seriously saying they work less and have a better mortality, infant and lifespan, then we have?

Work less? On what are you basing your assumption that they work less?

[Shawnee123]

I think he's contacted them. Crap, there goes the whole "uncontacted" mystique.

[DanaC]

lol

[Coign]

My argument is based on you making the assumption that they have better health plan and are overall happier based on NOTHING! That is called faith.

I base my argument that their life would be better by introducing civilization on historical FACTS. That is called science.

That is why I brought a god into it. It is not the American God I specify, or Yahweh, or Xenu, or what ever magical power you think makes them healthier then me. I mention all of them because each one is an example of YOUR type arrogance.

I don't care if you use the term higher power, god, or pixie dust. You making an assumption that contradicts greater empirical evidence means you have FAITH not reasoning to backup your argument.

The work less comment was because I use it as one (and only one) of my goal posts in a happiness measurement. And historically if they are hunter/gathers as these pictures indicate to me then they work a shitload. If you have to work 160 hours a week to feed your tribe you are not spending free time in the pursuit of happiness.

Yet you call those who use reasoning to say that we should contact them and introduce civilization to them arrogant? No we are not arrogant, we are civilized, and realize that magic does not make a person healthy.

[DanaC]

My argument is based on you making the assumption that they work less, have better health plan, and are overall happier based on NOTHING!. That is called faith.

Mate...what the fuck are you talking about? Who suggested they work less? Who made that assumption? I know I didn't. Nor did I make any assumptions regarding their 'health plan.' Nor did I make the assumption that they are happier. What I did posit is that we cannot make the assumption that their lives are hard, brutish and short with no evidence on which to base such an assumption. We shold not assume that they are unhappier than we are. Nor should we assume that the potential benefits of civilisation would a) automatically render them happier or b) automatically become available to them through being contacted.

You are making huge assumptions about these people and the effects contact would have and then accusing anybody who raises potential problems with that model of acting on blind faith, whilst attributing to them assumptions which they have not made.

[Shawnee123]

Where the fuck did I make any assumption that "they have better health plan?" Where the fuck did I make any assumption?

All I did was pose that, since we know nothing about them, PERHAPS they have a lower infant mortality rate than we could know. We don't know! How is it, if you're so civilized and advanced, you are still such a neanderthal?

PERHAPS. It's Engrish. Speak it.

Listen fuckwad, you're getting on my last nerve. Use me as your little hopping post for whatever cause you're trying to advance...but try to be accurate about what I said. And don't make assumptions about what I might think of as my faith. You know less about me than you do the forest-dwellars.
Or stick a cock in your mouth, a healthy one please.

Did I remember to say Fuck You? Oh, sorry. Fuck you.

[Shawnee123]

Originally Posted by Coign

My argument is based on you making the assumption that they have better health plan and are overall happier based on NOTHING! That is called faith.

I base my argument that their life would be better by introducing civilization on historical FACTS. That is called science.

That is why I brought a god into it. It is not the American God I specify, or Yahweh, or Xenu, or what ever magical power you think makes them healthier then me. I mention all of them because each one is an example of YOUR type arrogance.

I don't care if you use the term higher power, god, or pixie dust. You making an assumption that contradicts greater empirical evidence means you have FAITH not reasoning to backup your argument.

The work less comment was because I use it as one (and only one) of my goal posts in a happiness measurement. And historically if they are hunter/gathers as these pictures indicate to me then they work a shitload. If you have to work 160 hours a week to feed your tribe you are not spending free time in the pursuit of happiness.

Yet you call those who use reasoning to say that we should contact them and introduce civilization to them arrogant? No we are not arrogant, we are civilized, and realize that magic does not make a person healthy.

[Coign]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Mate...what the fuck are you talking about? Who suggested they work less? Who made that assumption? I know I didn't. Nor did I make any assumptions regarding their 'health plan.' Nor did I make the assumption that they are happier. What I did posit is that we cannot make the assumption that their lives are hard, brutish and short with no evidence on which to base such an assumption. We should not assume that they are unhappier than we are. Nor should we assume that the potential benefits of civilization would a) automatically render them happier or b) automatically become available to them through being contacted.

You are making huge assumptions about these people and the effects contact would have and then accusing anybody who raises potential problems with that model of acting on blind faith, whilst attributing to them assumptions which they have not made.

Sorry I was editing my message as you posted this one. I base my assumption that they work more on the FACT that I see them in the picture as a hunter/gather society which in EVERY case meant more work.

My HUGE assumptions is based on thousands of case histories. What are your HUGE assumptions based on?

I assume that to start them on the road to civilization WILL make their life better. Why do you want to keep them working, sick, and ignorant? Because history tells me that is what they are.

[Shawnee123]

NEITHER OF US MADE ANY ASSUMPTIONS YOU ASSUMPTION MAKING ASSHAT.

What a loser.

[Coign]

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

All I did was expostulate that, since we KNOW nothing about them

What do you know? I mean really know? Even if you drop an apple to the ground do you KNOW it will fall down EVERY time you do it?

This is the basis of the FACT that EVERYTHING is a theory and is the base argument for creationism. Because it is a theory it could be eventually proven wrong. Therefore maybe magic does exist.

I tend to believe that the apple (without any further extenuating circumstances) will fall to the ground. And you know what? I bet you I will be right.

Using what has been shown in the past I am willing to bet these people are hungry, sick, and unhappy. And you know what? Since I believe the apple will hit the ground, I bet you I will be right.

[Shawnee123]

Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, what apple? I'm too stupid to get the apple thing. Do you eat it?

Oh, and HUH?

[Coign]

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

NEITHER OF US MADE ANY ASSUMPTIONS YOU ASSUMPTION MAKING ASSHAT.

What a loser.

You are making the assumption that us contacting them will be bad. I am making the assumption that contacting them will be good.

The rest of it is just us backing up our argument. I use "what we know" as my basis for argument and you use "what you don't know" as the basis for your argument.

Faith vs. Science again at war.

[DanaC]

I assume that to start them on the road to civilization WILL make their life better. Why do you want to keep them working, sick, and ignorant? Because history tells me that is what they are.

First off, as I have already said in earlier posts: given their isolation and lack of material wealth the chances of them being able to partake in much that civilisation has to offer are actually quite slim. Secondly, because they are hunter gatherers and therefore have to work a great deal, does not mean they will automatically be happier. They will almost certainly concieve of work differently to the way you or I do as they are operating from a different (in fact profoundly alien) mentalite. Consequently the perceived burden of work will be different. It is unlikely that they will spend eight to ten hours a day doing the same thing every day, that is something they may consider burdensome in the same way I would consider having to find water burdensome.

You are pulling out historical agreement where none exists. It is the nature of historians to argue and find flaws with each others' theses. How detailed are your case studies? Are they from archaeological studies, in which case they are blurred by the lack of detailed records and the vast swathes of blank and unlit terrirtory. Are they from recently observed cultures, in which case the observation is through modern eyes.

We. Do. Not. Know. How. Happy. They. Are.

In what way am I making 'HUGE assumptions' by stating that we do not know enough about these uncontacted people to make assumptions about them?

[Coign]

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, what apple? I'm too stupid to get the apple thing. Do you eat it?

Oh, and HUH?

Newton's apple? You didn't get the implied physics argument there? How do we know physics will work the same every time?

I'm sorry, were you not taught science in school?

What analogy would you like me to use?