Sept 25, 2009: Dead Dogs Barking

[skysidhe]

Originally Posted by spudcon

Every pit bull I've ever seen has been sweet and loving.

My family owns two and they are the sweetest dogs.

How can this be a law? Incredible.

Donations to those animals that can be helped.
http://www.aspca.org/donate/

[sweetwater]

Just a couple of points - many humane societies are reluctant to adopt pit bulls out because of the liability issues, even assuming they can find a suitable home. It's not that the dogs are always vicious or seem mellow that makes it difficult, it's the unpredictability of the breed and the potential serious and/or fatal consequences when it shows. People that bring animals to shelters often blatantly lie about their pets' dispositions whether it's a pit bull or not. "Great with kids? Of course! Housebroken? Since he was 8 weeks old!" etc. I think the shelter policy is more often justified than not. And behavior of any dog in a show ring is N/A because the dogs do not consider the ring their territory, and there are many tricks the dog handler uses to keep the dogs busy, interested, and pumped. BTW, if you watch you will see that judges will have the handlers show the teeth with some breeds. But the worst for biting (at least a number of years ago) was St. Bernards and basenjis. Even a mean Dobe or hungry Airedale are tractable enough to train. Saints and basenjis are not as naturally trainable.

[Shawnee123]

There is a grand difference, and this has been pointed to in articles I have read as I ponder this thread, between propensity to bite and propensity to, once provoked to biting, ripping faces off.

[classicman]

I think they are taking into consideration the jaw-strength of these particular animals as well. Not that it's right, but IIRC, don't Pits and/or Rotts have really crazy strong bites or something?

[capnhowdy]

I don't think there's an accurate test to measure bites/jaw pressure. The root of the problem is that most dogs 'cut and run' wits, bite and release. The PBT wants to hang on a while, thus the mega meat-fest. This is expected from an animal bred to bring down a 1500 lb bull.
But I stick to my pinion that if an owner is a responsible owner he/she should be allowed to own whatever breed they choose. If they are irresponsible, then IMO they should be prepared to suffer the consequences.
It gives me nutsmoke that the guvmet is starting to treat some animals as if they were weapons or guns.

[Adak]

Hi from a lurker, and now, a first poster.

Originally Posted by capnhowdy

I don't think there's an accurate test to measure bites/jaw pressure. The root of the problem is that most dogs 'cut and run' wits, bite and release. The PBT wants to hang on a while, thus the mega meat-fest. This is expected from an animal bred to bring down a 1500 lb bull.

No, no! They have and use bite meters (digital ), to measure the strength of the dog's biting and holding strength.

And Pit Bull's were not bred to fight bulls. Bull "baiting", where the dogs tried to hold a bull by the nose or throat until it collapsed from lack of air, was done by a forerunner to the Pit Bull Terrier. Baiting lost interest to the "sport" of dog fighting. Fighting is what the Pit breeds were bred for. The white Bull Terrier you saw with all the quills in it, had a narrower head, and shorter legs. Because of that, it fared badly in the fighting ring, and was retired, as a breed.

The strength of a dogs bite is proportional to the width of their skulls. More skull width, allows more jaw muscle and jaw bone mass. The strength of a muscle is roughly proportional to it's mass, unless deliberate hypertrophy training (think physique champs), has been done.

APBT and Staffordshire Terriers are very strong, overall, will a high threshold for pain and "game-ness" (once started, they don't stop). Their biting strength is not better than that of breeds with wider heads, however.

Top of the list for biting strength:

1) <<Mastiff>> breeds of all types.
2) The massive dogs: Akita, St. Bernards, Wolfhound, Great Dane, Rottweiler, etc.
3) The large dogs: <<German Shepards, Belgian Shepards>>,
4) Medium sized: <<Staffordshire Terrier, Belgian Malinois>>.

#1 have been measured at 500 psi. #2 get to about 400 psi, #3, can get to 350 psi, #4 are about 290 psi.

The <<breeds>> were the one's measured for bite strength, as part of their K-9 work training or testing, or owned by K-9 trainers, and very well motivated. I added the others where I believe they fit, although I haven't seen their bite strength tested.

The Pit Bull Terrier is not a super strength biter, but through their selective breeding, the breed is very tenacious once it starts fighting, very muscular in general, aggressive in style, and has a higher pain threshold than most dogs. They're ideal for dog fighting because they can be readily kept, transported, and "broken" (using sticks designed for it). Much cheaper and safer than trying to work with a larger breed of dog.

It's interesting to note that some breeds of mastiff's are still being bred to instill a temperament of "loathing" for any strangers, including the "Presa Canario" mastiff.

As much as I like good Pit Bulls (and they are sweet, if socialized when they're young), I don't think most people should own them (or mastiffs), and the cities are wise to ban them.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Welcome to the Cellar, Adak.
Sounds like you have some experience with dog training.

[classicman]

Well try this video Cap'n.

or take a look here to refute it all - sorta.

[SPUCK]

Thanks for the edumacation Adak.

We had a full size Dachshund. He'd get on our bed and we could play with him by moving our feet under the covers and wiggling our toes. This really got him cranked up - chasing these mysterious ground dwellers.

The only thing that saved our feet was that we always had about 10 blankets on as our room often got down to the high 30s. When he grabbed a foot.. It was like clamping it in a vice. It was astounding how much pressure he exerted.
It was actually a little scary.

[Shawnee123]

Thanks for that information Adak. Welcome!

I was surprised to see Wolfhounds on the bite list. They are known, as I'm sure you know, as the Gentle Giant.

A dog that size could do some real harm, if provoked. But I would think that it would be a really messed up Wolfie to ever get to that point.

They're awfully darn cute!

[Adak]

Thanks for the welcome!

Dachshunds and all the "to ground" terrier breeds, are all fierce, being bred to go into the varmint's tunnels and either kill it underground, or flush it out.

Can you imagine a small dog, trying to kill a fox, badger, or skunk, in a small, dark den tunnel, underground?

Weird how the people back then developed several breeds of small terriers, specifically for these jobs. I sure can't see it, but times were different, back then. Varmint or game killing was expected work for most dogs.

Dogs were viewed and used as helpers, not pets.

[Shawnee123]

See, I always just thought small dogs suffered from "short guy syndrome."

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Adak

Dogs were viewed and used as helpers, not pets.

Very true... except for the very wealthy, dogs as pets didn't happen until the 20th century.

[TheDaVinciChode]

Originally Posted by Adak

Dogs were viewed and used as helpers, not pets.

With all the various breeds of dogs, bred for all possible tasks...

... Why, sir, was there never a breed, specifically designed for helping the lonely men during long, cold, isolated, winter nights?

There, where no one was around to see, to witness, to tell...?

Soft, short teeth, slender body, not too much saliva/drool, good temperament, eager to please...

It can, nay, it must be done!

[capnhowdy]

Done. NSFW!