Kucinich moves for Cheney Impeachment

Rexmons · 11-08-2007, 11:51 AM

You think this is just a stunt to get votes?

Happy Monkey · 11-08-2007, 12:40 PM

No, it's not a stunt to get votes. The candidates with cynical vote strategies wouldn't touch this for fear of Republicans calling them names.

Urbane Guerrilla · 11-08-2007, 09:42 PM

It'd be a great way to lose my vote, even though it's well known I wouldn't vote for a Democratic candidate anyway.

Ibby · 11-09-2007, 04:02 AM

Great analysis of the situation.

TheMercenary · 11-09-2007, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibram

Great analysis of the situation.

I think it's great. Let them try it.

Griff · 11-09-2007, 10:03 PM

Dennis is right on the money. For the life of me I can't see why people still support this administration. Let's run through the list of excuses for preemptive war. Sadaam = Al Q oops we didn't mean to pretend that. mmm... yellow cake is yummy but also fabricated. Aluminum tubes!!! Holy shit aluminum tubes! It's really about democracy except in Pakilandistan then its about the love between a man and a man he'd love to see removing his uniform. Oh and let's make sure we torture like a bunch of eastern block bitches and suspend the Bill of Rights because they only matter when its convenient. /rant o'da day

Urbane Guerrilla · 11-12-2007, 11:53 PM

Griff, why can't you accept it's about pulling a nation away from an ultra-statist antilibertarian political order into a more libertarian one? -- stipulating that it isn't completely libertarian. That is the chiefest point I see in the entire affair, myself. Indeed, I think it eclipses any other consideration. And that looks to be about what this Administration has as a goal, rather than this conspiracist stuff about how it's all for the benefit of the oil companies. That's too lame for me to believe -- it's been alleged over and over and over, without supporting evidence, just the standard conspiracy-peddlers' suggestion that the reader connect the dots. Which in its turn relieves the conspiracist of the necessity of coming up with the provable connections himself.

Anyway, that is why this libertarian likes what some Republicans are doing. Conspicuously in contrast, the Democrats haven't.

tw · 11-13-2007, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

... from an ultra-statist antilibertarian political order ...

Oh come on UG. Hilter used far longer phrases in Mein Kampf. You can do better.

Griff · 11-13-2007, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Griff, why can't you accept it's about pulling a nation away from an ultra-statist antilibertarian political order into a more libertarian one?

I can't accept it because the nation that matters is being pulled in a decidedly statist anti-libertarian direction. George was elected President of the United States of America, not the United States of the mid-East or East Asia or the world. I see little comittment to free markets and free people in the US, so allow me to doubt that his overseas agenda is free of insider deals.

Urbane Guerrilla · 11-14-2007, 09:45 PM

I'm sure you can doubt as you see fit; I however continue to applaud our campaigns in the overall War as steps in a more libertarian direction for social orders that frankly haven't had any libertarianism yet -- which state of affairs I abominate beyond all abomination. I've never heard why you don't share that view. Switching straight from an autocracy to full-on libertarianism, in no time, nor with any systematic transitional steps -- what do you think the likely outcome of trying that one would be?

I think it would mean instant civil war until one side or the other was pretty much shot out. Awfully chancy, not to mention the waste and destruction. As it is, with the more modest political change we're trying to help grow, we've still got civil war and alarming developments. And, well, we've got to expect waste and destruction and to decide how much we're willing to accept en route to a great liberation. You know how much value I set on liberty, and how much I think it would benefit foreign folks whose ways are different from our own.

A certain fellow whose books I like sums it up as "the engine can't move any faster than the caboose."

Meanwhile, there's the question of what it's going to take to spread libertarianism and libertarian social orders across the globe. I don't think very many Libertarian Party members have thought about this. Certain of them, seeing me thinking about it, are moved to complain, and advocate a wimping out instead of a propagation. This is commitment??

Griff · 11-15-2007, 05:36 PM

You often reference your time in the military when considering totalitarianism, yet you desire that America become more militaristic. I can't quite follow your logic. We are to become Prussians to promote liberalism abroad? I'm sorry but your logic is confusing to my scotch saturated brain.

I'm considering the matter of using force to install a government not of a populations choosing and calling it democracy. There were more than enough rifles in Iraq to remove the nut Hussein, if the people there decided he was worse than mob rule. They chose otherwise yet you call your parties imposition democracy.

Libertarianism is a belief system developed in the West and appealing to about 2% of Westerners. Stop selling totalitarianism and calling it libertarianism. It is a marketing ploy aimed at gaining 2% of voters for a debased GOP. It isn't worth your time.

queequeger · 11-15-2007, 06:02 PM

Not to mention that 'Spreading libertarianism' is oxymoronic. Libertarianism has at it's very core non-involvement. It's a ridiculous concept, and it borders on double think.

Urbane Guerrilla · 11-15-2007, 11:37 PM

That's a defect, and should not be allowed to enter into believers' hearts or minds. If it is to succeed, which I for one think is a good idea, it must spread -- actively.

"They chose otherwise...?" They were browbeaten by ultra-statists into acquiescence and were kept browbeaten by the severest measures of oppression. No, I cannot believe "chose." Too much like fascist-sympathizing for this libertarian, I'll tell ya. Particularly in the case of the Ba'ath Party; its direct Fascist antecedents are well known. (Are you trying to do that piss-me-off thing again?)

It's time to make it appealing to at least twice two percent -- to start. Well? Do you really want a better society, or do you want a debate club??

queequeger · 11-15-2007, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Do you really want a better society, or do you want a debate club??

I guess it's a bit of the college student in me, but I think those are reciprocal entities.

/me hums 'Love and Marriage'

Griff · 11-16-2007, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

It's time to make it appealing to at least twice two percent -- to start. Well? Do you really want a better society, or do you want a debate club??

I would rather your party, the GOP, considered the virtues of non-intervention instead of submitting to the ultra-statist views of your fellow neo-cons. Brother, I only count one facist sympathizer in this discussion. Only one person here is actively opposed to observing the Bill of Rights. Only one person here gives aid and comfort to petty terrorists by supporting their recruiting efforts by his support of putting my fellow citizens in harms way.

11-08-2007, 11:51 AM	#1
Rexmons - Kavkaz United - Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 613	Kucinich moves for Cheney Impeachment You think this is just a stunt to get votes? __________________ "Life's a bitch but God forbid the bitch divorce me..."

11-08-2007, 12:40 PM	#2
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	No, it's not a stunt to get votes. The candidates with cynical vote strategies wouldn't touch this for fear of Republicans calling them names. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

11-08-2007, 09:42 PM	#3
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	It'd be a great way to lose my vote, even though it's well known I wouldn't vote for a Democratic candidate anyway. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

11-09-2007, 04:02 AM	#4
Ibby erika Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: "the high up north" Posts: 6,127	Great analysis of the situation. __________________ not really back, you didn't see me, i was never here shhhhhh

11-09-2007, 10:03 PM	#6
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	Dennis is right on the money. For the life of me I can't see why people still support this administration. Let's run through the list of excuses for preemptive war. Sadaam = Al Q oops we didn't mean to pretend that. mmm... yellow cake is yummy but also fabricated. Aluminum tubes!!! Holy shit aluminum tubes! It's really about democracy except in Pakilandistan then its about the love between a man and a man he'd love to see removing his uniform. Oh and let's make sure we torture like a bunch of eastern block bitches and suspend the Bill of Rights because they only matter when its convenient. /rant o'da day __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

11-12-2007, 11:53 PM	#7
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	Griff, why can't you accept it's about pulling a nation away from an ultra-statist antilibertarian political order into a more libertarian one? -- stipulating that it isn't completely libertarian. That is the chiefest point I see in the entire affair, myself. Indeed, I think it eclipses any other consideration. And that looks to be about what this Administration has as a goal, rather than this conspiracist stuff about how it's all for the benefit of the oil companies. That's too lame for me to believe -- it's been alleged over and over and over, without supporting evidence, just the standard conspiracy-peddlers' suggestion that the reader connect the dots. Which in its turn relieves the conspiracist of the necessity of coming up with the provable connections himself. Anyway, that is why this libertarian likes what some Republicans are doing. Conspicuously in contrast, the Democrats haven't. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

11-14-2007, 09:45 PM	#10
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	I'm sure you can doubt as you see fit; I however continue to applaud our campaigns in the overall War as steps in a more libertarian direction for social orders that frankly haven't had any libertarianism yet -- which state of affairs I abominate beyond all abomination. I've never heard why you don't share that view. Switching straight from an autocracy to full-on libertarianism, in no time, nor with any systematic transitional steps -- what do you think the likely outcome of trying that one would be? I think it would mean instant civil war until one side or the other was pretty much shot out. Awfully chancy, not to mention the waste and destruction. As it is, with the more modest political change we're trying to help grow, we've still got civil war and alarming developments. And, well, we've got to expect waste and destruction and to decide how much we're willing to accept en route to a great liberation. You know how much value I set on liberty, and how much I think it would benefit foreign folks whose ways are different from our own. A certain fellow whose books I like sums it up as "the engine can't move any faster than the caboose." Meanwhile, there's the question of what it's going to take to spread libertarianism and libertarian social orders across the globe. I don't think very many Libertarian Party members have thought about this. Certain of them, seeing me thinking about it, are moved to complain, and advocate a wimping out instead of a propagation. This is commitment?? __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

11-15-2007, 05:36 PM	#11
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	You often reference your time in the military when considering totalitarianism, yet you desire that America become more militaristic. I can't quite follow your logic. We are to become Prussians to promote liberalism abroad? I'm sorry but your logic is confusing to my scotch saturated brain. I'm considering the matter of using force to install a government not of a populations choosing and calling it democracy. There were more than enough rifles in Iraq to remove the nut Hussein, if the people there decided he was worse than mob rule. They chose otherwise yet you call your parties imposition democracy. Libertarianism is a belief system developed in the West and appealing to about 2% of Westerners. Stop selling totalitarianism and calling it libertarianism. It is a marketing ploy aimed at gaining 2% of voters for a debased GOP. It isn't worth your time. __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

11-15-2007, 06:02 PM	#12
queequeger Hypercharismatic Telepathical Knight Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The armpit of the Universe... Augusta, GA Posts: 365	Not to mention that 'Spreading libertarianism' is oxymoronic. Libertarianism has at it's very core non-involvement. It's a ridiculous concept, and it borders on double think. __________________ Hoocha, hoocha, hoocha... lobster.

11-15-2007, 11:37 PM	#13
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	That's a defect, and should not be allowed to enter into believers' hearts or minds. If it is to succeed, which I for one think is a good idea, it must spread -- actively. "They chose otherwise...?" They were browbeaten by ultra-statists into acquiescence and were kept browbeaten by the severest measures of oppression. No, I cannot believe "chose." Too much like fascist-sympathizing for this libertarian, I'll tell ya. Particularly in the case of the Ba'ath Party; its direct Fascist antecedents are well known. (Are you trying to do that piss-me-off thing again?) It's time to make it appealing to at least twice two percent -- to start. Well? Do you really want a better society, or do you want a debate club?? __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

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