Fortunate soldier

[Happy Monkey]

Originally posted by wolf
Money or not, Switzerland is not feared as a major world power.

Neither were most of these countries.

[Fireman]

I have to be the man here, and appoligise to all concerned for my inconsiterate responses to Radar. I understand that he feels that he is right, and I am the mindless military person here, but I hope that all will be resolved, and we all can get on the right track. I do admire his pationate argument though. But, I still believe he is wrong in his views, but at the same time right in some ways. Radar, you just sit back and hope for the Utopia(sp?)That you so much want, then put reality in in prospective, and when you wake up the next morning, which one do you wake up to see? I donnot support Imperialistic values, thats Marxists. You are the type of person that burns the flags, arent you. Are you the leader of the an Anti- American, Anarchist Group? If you dont like the country you live in, move.

That my opinion

[Radar]

Radar.....now lets talk like rational people.

Oh, and Radar........DONT EVER TELL ANYONE THAT THEY ARE THE CAUSE OF 9-11-01!!!! YOU WERE NOT THERE TO SEE THE DEVISTATION!!!!!!!

wITH EVERY PEICE OF RUBLE REMOVED CAME A TEAR, WITH EVERY BODY FOUND CAME A PRAYER. tO SAY THAT i AM THE CAUSE OF 9-1101, IS A DISCRASE TO ANY MANE THAT SERVES THE COUNTRY "YOU" LIVE IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, very rational. I don't think you personally helped the terrorists, but those who believe America should have our military spread out all over the globe like the Roman Empire in a show of force to bully other people around, act as the world's police, and be the UN's "enforcer" are indirectly responsible. It is thier ignorance that caused the hatred of the United States in the first place. And if our mlitary had been defending the United States instead of pissing off these nations, the September 11th attacks never would have happened.

Do I think those who died that day deserved it? Not at all. It was a senseless tragedy that could have been avoided if we had only minded our own business and defended our own country.

Do I think those who did it should be attacked by us? Of course. But Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, nor did they plan with, train, support, those who did. 17 of the 19 terrorists who attacked that day were from Saudi Arabia and the others were Egyptian. Were Egypt and Saudi Arabia attacked in retaliation? No. Instead we attacked a sovereign nation that had nothing to do with it because Bush has a personal vendetta against their leader. But hey, 500+ American lives are nothing right? More than 500 Americans have died because George W. Bush alone started an unprovoked war against a non-threat.

Radar isn't going to change his position, just in case you were wondering. But he is excellent for honing your own arguments for other venues.

I would change my position, but I see no reason to do so when I'm right. If I were to change it, I would be wrong.

Radar - I like the American Soil/Americans' Oil, thing, but I'm pretty sure the apostrophe goes after the s in this case.

Duly noted.


BTW Fireman, I served in the US Military.

[Radar]

Radar, you just sit back and hope for the Utopia(sp?)That you so much want, then put reality in in prospective, and when you wake up the next morning, which one do you wake up to see?

I don't believe in Utopia. My solutions work in the real world around us that we wake up to right now. We don't need a Utopia for them to work.

I donnot support Imperialistic values, thats Marxists.

Imperialism is entirely different than Marxism. Imperialism is the belief that one country should run other countries. Marxism is the beleif that the means of production should be owned by the state and everyone should make the same amount of money regardless of how much they produce. (Well there's a lot more to Marxism, but that's it in a nutshell)

One can be a Marxist but not an imperialist and one can be an imperialist but not a Marxist. England is a nation of imperialists. They had a large Empire. Perhaps you're familiar with the phrase, "The sun never sets on the British Empire". America was created to escape from Imperialism (The British Empire) and now, thanks to the likes of George W. Bush, we're practicing it.

If you had read the writings of the founding fathers, you'd know that America was created to secure individual liberty and that we wanted to people to keep our government in check through the Constitution.

You are the type of person that burns the flags, arent you.

No, I am not. But unlike you, I recognize the fact that one of the things the American flag stands for is the freedom to burn American flags.

Are you the leader of the an Anti- American, Anarchist Group?

No, I'm a leader of a very pro-American political party that is minarchistic. We want a small, efficient, and cheap government that only does what is specifically listed in the Constitution. Just like Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, etc.

If you dont like the country you live in, move.

I love my country very much and I've sworn an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic. And the greatest danger to it right now is domestic. In fact it's in the oval office.

In the words of Edward Abbey, "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government."

Unlike the fools who think the measure of patriotism is in how many flags they can stick to their pickup truck, I am a true American patriot. And patriots have always questioned authority and the motives of government. You on the other hand are not a patriot. You are a nationalist. You are the type who wraps himself up in the flag and says stupid things like, "My Country Right or Wrong"

[Fireman]

Then Radar, you did see the wall painting that were dated "1994" ont the walls of the Terrerist camps. One know the ones, here at the airport, of the two planes crashing into buildings. I have lost 36 friends here. So to answer your question, another 500 is ok? NO. When my father came back from war he was beaten down by "peace" activists. You are only 7 months oldr than I, so we may have eaten the same dirt.(ie;Kuwait,Somolia,Panama,and so on.) I am not mad at you personally, just some of your views. Let me tell you about some things, my weapon, is a fire hose, an air pack, a medic bag, and fear of loss of life. I will forever be in the debt of those who did not make it alive, yes, their loss was dredfull, and I will NEVER forget them. I do not feel that Bush had a personnal vendetta.
But when I see what this country,here has gone through, and seen how their so called leader was living, it makes me sick. I just wish that you can see what I see here. Maybe someday, you and I can see eachothers veiws and agree to disagree.

[Fireman]

Well, Radar. I guess you are the one on top of it all. Like I said before, I am a simple redneck. And no I do not drive a pick-up truck with flags all over it. I was raised to believe in my country. My heart is in my country. The questions that I asked, were retoricle. I love my country, I believe in government. I beleive in Americans. The only flags that I own are in shadow boxes of my diseased family members, and on my Scout leader uniforms. I own a little station wagon to haul my children off to school in. No steritypical red neck here. I do beleive in freedom for all men, and to be created equal under god. If you want to treat me like some idiot off the streets, fine, I can take it. But my views are my views, but like I said before, I agree with some of what you are saying, but , you cannot force people to beleive in what you say is right. Our for-father had once wanted us to be able to hole our own, then later, I guess it became more of a lets share the wealth of freedom around the world. I just feel that when one person down grades a military person for doing what he/she believes in, I take it personally. I do appoligise for the mix up of the Marxist and the Imperialist. Thank you for your time.

Thats just my opinion

[tw]

Originally posted by Fireman
So please just sit back and understand that I am here for my beleifs that people should live a better life, rather than "serve" a man that lets his people starve in the streets.

If that really was your position, then you were appauled if not outrightly angery that Reagan attacked Muslims in Lebanon first with A-6s and then with the USS New Jersey. Basic historical education says that premature use of military force only compromises US positions throughout that entire part of the world AND makes Americans a target of terrorism. Radar has accurately demonstrated same having first learned history.

In days before the 250+ Marines were attacked in Beriut, Americans could walk among all combatants because, like the Swiss, we were honest brokers. Only those who read Daily News or don't read news at all did not understand this. Some shameful aspects of American history are when we choose, like extremist militants, to solve problems only because we preceived a great threat that never existed. VietNam is the classic example of shameful military policy only because we 'feared' before we 'understood'.

By admission, you are not a great student of history. You see enemies on our borders if we don't maintain a military larger than the entire world combined. That being a fact you had better understood. Our military is larger than the entire world combined. This militaristic mentality has long through history resulted in unjustified wars and a long term destruction of the domestic economy. One must first learn from history before one can recognize any threat to this nation.

Learn American history if only from one book: The Pentagon Papers. Long before one sees any threat, one should have learned from this history. Thank goodness for one of America's greatest patriots who got these lessons of history to us. We spent massive force and American lives only because extremist militants saw enemies throughout SE Asia. Reailty was that the enemy, instead, wanted to be a protectorate of the United States. Reread that sentence. Why then did we attack someone who so want to so be us as to .... even write a Declaration of Independence that was a copy of the US Declaration of Independence. Do you know this history or do you think the war in VietNam was justified - to protect American borders?

Radar has accurately defined the good and evil in American history. So important that, after VietNam, military officers were expected to be well educated in such history. To learn the bigger picture so that military force is only a last option. Unfortunately, we are right back to pre VietNam war days when the extremists among us again see enemies everywhere. Enemies that just don't exist except when when inspire them in boondoogles such as the unjustified invasion of Iraq.

Concepts are even well defined in Sun Tzu's Art of War - a book one should familiar before one cites a need for more military. Lessons taught in 500 BC. IOW those without the extensive lessons of history are doom to repeat it. Firemen only advocates reasons that caused the WTC attack. Osama bin Laden and the Muslim Brotherhood had little interest in attacknig the US - that is until we lied. Fireman then uses the WTC attack to justify war against others. That and such an exceesively large military will only undermine American strength and American popularity throughout the world. More important - we must first be an honest broker as we were in the Balkans.

Before America became an extremist nation that would attack anyone - Americans were welcome virtually everywhere. This despite what extremists will tell you. Today, American popularity is sharply down - only because the current administration would even advocate an attack on mainland China - over a silly spy plane. Again, the lessons of history. Only an extremist would see the China spy plane incident as a reason for war between nations. And yet that is what this administration - that needs more military - advocated. We almost went to war over something as silly as a spy plane. No wonder American popularity has dropped by factors such as *7 times* in only three years. No wonder this president is considered a mental midget throughout the world. Those who spend time drinking and doing drugs should instead have been learning the lessons of history. Six months training from Conny Rice is not sufficient.

[Fireman]

TW.....Let me see if I have what you are saying is correct. (me being an idiotic redneck,as pointed out by Radar) Because the US has a military, is the right for somone to attack us? When I said that I am here for my beleifs that people shoudl live a better life, rather than serve a man that lets his peaople starve ing ther streets. I ment from what I have seen here in Iraq. I see all the beutiful Palaces, then I see shanties and people living in old train boxes, thats what I was saying. Lebanon, I was a mear teen still trying to make the first cut for the football season, and worried about getting my drivers license. Look. I know that all here are all blessed with the knowlage of the universe, but we are all on the same planet, some choose to hate certain people, some just want to go on and do what life has in store for them. Lets cut to the chase. Dont blame a military man/woman for serving in the military, its our constitutional right to choose to do so, its the rights of others to be Lawers, Doctors, Policemen, Polititions.
I agree to disagree. Agreed?

[Pi]

"On ne peut prévoir les choses qu'après qu'elles sont arrivées" Eugène Ionesco. (free translation : One can only predict actions after they happened)
"It is better to be vaguely right than precisely wrong" John Keynes.

I'm glad USA came over in WWII. I think Constitution could be wrong. Would it be the same if it would be written today or in 250 years? I don't want to be the man who has to take the decision to send people to war. I think that such a wealthy and strong country with the Constitution it has, has some moral obligations to let the world go nuts.

I'm not judging anyone's opinion, I just want to give some points of reflection...

[Fireman]

Pi. I agree. After "discussing" several different views with Radar, which he does put up several fair arguments(sp) for which I commend him of his ideas. I feel after several lines of lines of arguments, that we are all proud americans. After WWII, my grandfather and uncles visited the beaches that they stormed for one last time, they felt that what they did was good, but because of the losses, they felt terrible. I feel the same way.

[Undertoad]

It takes a very twisted mind indeed to stare Nazism in the face and say that neutrality was the correct position.

Or that the other countries were taken because they were NOT neutral.

Or that Switzerland forged its identity and position through careful judgement and not because it had centuries of experience building a strategic defense of its mountainous landscape.

Or that Switzerland would have lasted two weeks after the rest of Europe had been taken.

Or that the US, the most wealthy country on the earth, trading for resources in every deep corner, can manage its trade -- and thus its continued economic growth -- without protection of the systems that permit that trade. (I think DeSoto's "The Mystery of Capital" explains why free trade requires such protection.)

Or that the most wealthy and powerful nation on earth would never be a target merely for the sake of its power and wealth.

[Fireman]

You know folks.....it just occured to me that we got off the main subject. But all in all, Radar, Pi, Monkey,Undertoad, I think that we can all agree together that war is a bad thing, right?
Radar, I see some of your veiws as very thought through, ie;not speading our military out all over the world, this I agree with. But do not blame a military member for serving in the military, someone once said, when this all started, Support the Troops, but not the cause. I think it was an actress, I dont know I dont watch TV very much, I dont even know how to turn it on(red neck you know)

Semper Princeps

[tw]

Originally posted by Fireman
TW.....Let me see if I have what you are saying is correct. (me being an idiotic redneck,as pointed out by Radar) Because the US has a military, is the right for somone to attack us? ...

Now you have completely misquoted and misrepresented what I said. A great nation shows restrain. People starving in the street is sometimes important for a nation to become adults. Worst thing the US could do is try to solve starvation by military action. Emotional will not like it. But the hard nosed realist (an enemy of liberals and extremist conservatives) has long learned that things must get worse before the local people will decide to solve their own problems.

First, the problem must be solved by the local powers. Then by the UN. To walk in like a big bully and demand solutions - be it between nations or between persons - simply never solves the problem. But even worse, the big bully- the 800 pound gorilla - too often will resort to power before letting smarter negotiators solve the problem.

Iraq was a classic example. Problem was responsiblity of local powers actually threatened by Iraq - Kuwait, Turkey, Saudia Arabia, Jordan, and Iran. None - nada - saw any threat and said so because there was no threat. And yet we had to stumble in and protect them from themselves. Now we are paying the price. No smoking gun means no justification for war.

One need only learn that mistake in Somolia. We were stupid and fortunately got out before we got too deep in shit.

Bosnia and Kosovo demonstrate how to solve world problems. First it was Europe's and the UN's problem. Second, the solution would not work until numerous locals died. That applies everywhere. Only after enough had died (and I feared he was going in too early) and only after the local power proved to be incapable; only then did Clinton move into and solve the Balkans. Balkans demonstrate how smart people solve problems - military being only the last option - which is why the locals did not attack US troops (as in Iraq).

You are in the military. My restraint means I (and Radar) am your best friend especially having learned from Nam. You are to be deployed only when you can be effective. When our wealth is spent to good purpose. And when the action does not make us enemies of everyone. Not enought people died in Iraq to justify an American involvement.

There must be a smoking gun before America is threatened. IOW yes, many must die before war is justified. That also is the lessons of history. Smoking guns included Pearl Harbor, WTC, and Korea. There was no smoking gun in Somolia or Iraq. There was no threat even to local nations in that region. Unlike Afghanistan, we know there is no justification for US in Iraq.

I don't care if some live in shanties and others in mansions. That is not America's problem. It is a domestic or regional problem. In the meantime, people are living in shanties - without even a glass window - in W Virginia. Should we attack W Virginia - or seek an intelligent solution?

People living in shanties is a classic (and therefore naive) reason for justificaton of war? A reason that only the emotional would use. Sorry but the shanty comment must be replied to in the context it was posted - silly emotional reasoning must be blunty attacked. Shanties do not justify risking your life anywhere in the world - especially when the solution is found in diplomacy.

What the world needs is a smaller US military so that local powers take more action to solve their own problems. Other nations downsize because the US will pay for their protection. This is will continue because the US has too much military and gets involves (sometimes) too early. And yet that mistake is what an extremist military solution advocates. Fortunately places such as Sierra Leone did not have US involvement. Therefore the local powers solved the problem. Again lessons of history.

Iraq was only a local problem. We now know the local powers were correct. Saddam was a threat to no one. Too many shanty towns? That is a regional problem - not an American problem. Now we have major American economic problems because we decided (stupidly) again to be the world's policeman. Only enemies of American send American troops to solve all world problems.

Lets keep this straight. Your post implies you were personally insulted. You were not. Posted from Radar is what you want your leaders to do before you are deployed anywhere. So don't get emotional - and therefore misunderstand what is posted. Justifying the invasion of Iraq because of shanty towns is a very irresponsible and illogical response. Americans are intelligent when they don't try to solve all the world's problems - and instead let the locals eventually solve those problems. And yes, that means enough locals must die so that they never make those mistakes again.

Long before we attacked Iraq, we instead should have been going after Osama bin Laden AND let the 'powers that be' solve the silly Iraq distraction. Instead we let the French and Germans go look for bin Laden. More irresponsible use of US troops. This president let bin Laden run free - in part because he wanted to fix the world starting with Iraq.

America is attacked if we too quickly and to often resort to a military response. How often are the Bosnians, Serbs, and Croatians attacking US troops? Holbrook properly demonstrated how and when to use a military - only as a last resort. Attacking Iraq only made the US a target of terrorist - and let Osama bin Laden run free.

[Fireman]

TW. Thank you for the most logical reasoning I have read so far. The shantie thing, is a personnal observation, I shouldnt have used it in that way. But I do agree with alot of what you said, now it make sence, the idea of "curving" toward Iraq is kind of a sketchy idea for the US to make. You are right with that.
As for my wealth to be spread for a perpose, I feel I have been a well used insterment here, (Firefighter,Medic) But I still disagree with the idea that we shouldnt do cirtain deployments, I was on Dagger Base in Mukaditu,Samolia. I was very young, my 2nd deployment, and after reading in on why we were there, I still dont understand, but I will have to say that what little help we did there,(I do mean little) was needed. Do I think that my high school friend Roscoe , should have died, no. But he beleived in what he was doing was good. We as the military can only know whats being told to us, and you folks back in the states, can only see what the media is putting out. With this note, I agree with several of your points, and I disagree with some. I do, however,
thank yo for your support.

Semper Princeps

[OnyxCougar]

We as the military can only know whats being told to us,

And the beginning of this thread focused on the fact that military members do what they are ORDERED to do. They may think about it later, but they are trained to jump first ask questions later.