Beheading in Iraq

[DanaC]

*Chuckles* yeah . Not the best link for me to choose. I went looking for something relating to the surrender issues and that was the first one I found. That isnt where I learned of the Japanese surrendr. I learned about that watching some very interesting documentaries on BBC1.

Interestingly I have a link here which shows how this subject is taught in UK schools

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/sosteac...wer75598.shtml

[godwulf]

First off, tw - it's true that I completely misconstrued your post. I thought that you were saying that the prisoner abuse scandal was losing its grip on public interest because it was trivial and deserved to be forgotten quickly. I now understand that you were saying quite the opposite.

All of the discussion about Watergate (I was over 16 in '72, btw, and in the Navy) and Hiroshima, etc., is interesting and instructive, and I believe that most of the controversy surrounding any and all of these events centers on the willingness or unwillingness of individuals to accept that their government (or the one with which they identify or sympathize) is capable of some ruthless act - whether covering up a third-rate burglary aimed at recovering photos of a White House staffer's girlfriend, or incinerating hundreds of thousands of innocent human beings needlessly.

Unfortunately, one man's (or woman's) rational and mature cynicism is another's delusional thinking...or even treason.

With regard to a possible CIA or military intel connection to the Nick Berg killing, all I know is that I've been roundly attacked on a couple of other boards for even suggesting the possibility; it's amazing to me how defensive and angry some people can become when simply faced with an idea that makes them uncomfortable or challenges their assumptions.

I'm more than willing to concede the possibility that Nick Berg was killed by Islamic Fundamentalists, and I have no personal or ideological stake in either believing otherwise or trying to get anyone else to do so.

I'm simply stating that - given the ruthlessly pragmatic character that the U.S. government has shown in the recent past - I, personally, would not be surprised by anything.

[DanaC]

oh - i forgot. F the geneva convention. our forces are the only ones who have followed the rules since the damn thing was created.

You'll forgive me if I find that funny..... America is the only nation whose forces have followed the Geneva Conventions since 1864/5 or since WW1? You dont think America violated those conventions during it's engagements around the world at any time? You believe every other country who signed up to it has broken those conventions whilst America stands proud and free of guilt?

[godwulf]

Originally posted by DanaC
You'll forgive me if I find that funny..... America is the only nation whose forces have followed the Geneva Conventions since 1864/5 or since WW1? You dont think America violated those conventions during it's engagements around the world at any time? You believe every other country who signed up to it has broken those conventions whilst America stands proud and free of guilt?

Actually, I believe it has been proven in independent scientific tests that there is no measurable limit to the extent of happy jingoistic horsecrap that will be enthusiastically swallowed (pardon the imagery) by the average self-styled "patriotic American".

I heard somebody on the radio the other day explaining how it was the Liberal Jews who were actually responsible for the death of Jesus - it's similar to that mentality.

[DanaC]

*Nods sagely* yes, I see that. *passes Godwulf a Camberwell Carrot*
.....I am sure I didnt smoke this many joints before I wandered down into the cellar

[Troubleshooter]

Originally posted by godwulf


Actually, I believe it has been proven in independent scientific tests that there is no measurable limit to the extent of happy jingoistic horsecrap that will be enthusiastically swallowed (pardon the imagery) by the average self-styled "patriotic American".

I heard somebody on the radio the other day explaining how it was the Liberal Jews who were actually responsible for the death of Jesus - it's similar to that mentality.

Sheeple, in general, are rather dim, and it's only going to get worse.

It's my greatest worry about democracy.

[DanaC]

Sheeple

......That I like.

[jaguar]

me too, and yes, I like that.

[Yelof]

Sheeple

yeah, some times I have felt the need to head down to the studios of "Big Brother" or "Fame Academy" and lob a grenade in, perhaps then people might pay attention to what is happening in the world*..


..eh but I'm a peaceful type guy who is glad he is not allowed come into easy contact with lethal weapons


* and I might be able to wrestle the remote control back from my "significant other"

[lookout123]

Originally posted by godwulf
, all I know is that I've been roundly attacked on a couple of other boards for even suggesting the possibility; it's amazing to me how defensive and angry some people can become when simply faced with an idea that makes them uncomfortable or challenges their assumptions.

oh come on marmot/godwulf - the only one i actually saw attacking you on the other board is probably certifiable himself. i merely stated that i don't think you really believe the theory yourself. LOL

[lookout123]

ok - with a little less irritability on my side i'd like to clear up a few things.

Dana - i was not referring to Britain's former empire status at all. i was referring to your obvious condescension to your american brothers and sisters. when i worked at the the British embassy in Riyadh, KSA - we were REGULARLY referred to as "the colonies" in a condescending manner. i unfairly assumed your condescending slams against my educational background were coming from the same misguided, arrogant world view.

and to Dana and godwulf: when i said "we" i meant America/UK/various allies. Godwulf, in your 21 years in the navy i think you saw that the American/allied forces typically do follow the accepted rules of war. that is not to say that there have not been times where the rules were tossed to accomplish the goals. and no i wasn't saying that ALL other militaries in the world are out looking for the worst atrocities to commit just to start their day. but a brief overview of the 20th century would show that the US/allies did adhere more closely to the geneva convention.
unfortunately this is not a black/white hat world. like in vietnam we are now fighting an enemy that will strike at ANY target, then slink back into their society at large. i believe this type of warfare calls for a new look at the convention and generally accepted rules of engagement.

dana - as far as your hiroshima - the end goal may not have been just to end the war - possibly the bomb was used (very effectively) as a demonstration of what happens when you screw around with the wrong people/nations. now if you want to get into psych/soc issues of why we nuked japan and not germany - i'll be the first to tell you: it was a racially motivated decision. the germans looked and in peacetime lived like americans, the japanese, on the other hand, looked, sounded, lived differently so it was as difficult to justify.
looking back - i still believe it was the right decision, the japanese may have been sending up quiet signals that they are ready to talk, but at the time the leadership understood that you don't negotiate with the opponent while they still believe they are in a position of strength.
america has never been and will never be "loved" by the world. a healthy dose of fear of the consequences of messing with the US will have to do.

[tw]

Originally posted by godwulf
With regard to a possible CIA or military intel connection to the Nick Berg killing, all I know is that I've been roundly attacked on a couple of other boards for even suggesting the possibility; it's amazing to me how defensive and angry some people can become when simply faced with an idea that makes them uncomfortable or challenges their assumptions.

You are rightly justified - and basically must consider the possiblity - of why Nick Berg was beheaded. This because all possibilities must be considered.

Take another example from Richard Clarke. Terry Nichols can not make a decent bomb. He goes to Phillippines. Comes back and suddenly his bombs work. Did he get help from Islamic fundamentalist who were also there? Very unlikely. But it too is a conspiracy story we cannot ignore; and yet just cannot advocate.

Would CIA have Berg beheaded to shift attention from their Geneva Convention violations? If true, then we have some very rogue and dangerous elements in the 'sneaky' community. However one need only realize that Gordon Liddys do exist. Just that no facts exist to support the Berg murder had domestic reasons.

[russotto]

Wow, the "US is the root of all evil" crowd has really taken over this thread...

I'll refute one part of it, anyway:

VE-Day: May 8, 1945
Trinity explosion: July 16, 1945

[DanaC]

Dana - i was not referring to Britain's former empire status at all. i was referring to your obvious condescension to your american brothers and sisters. when i worked at the the British embassy in Riyadh, KSA - we were REGULARLY referred to as "the colonies" in a condescending manner. i unfairly assumed your condescending slams against my educational background were coming from the same misguided, arrogant world view.

Fair enough *smiles* I unfairly made those assumptions about your educational background because the tone of your post was not indicative of one so well educated. I daresay I havent shown myself to the best of my abilities at times either. In terms of attitudes towards Americans . I suppose there is likely an element of "superiority complex" about us Brits....But that's just cause we're better :P

[godwulf]

Originally posted by lookout123

oh come on marmot/godwulf - the only one i actually saw attacking you on the other board is probably certifiable himself. i merely stated that i don't think you really believe the theory yourself. LOL

Actually, lookout/smithdj, I was thinking more about the reception the idea received in some quarters of the shout.uk board. Yeah, I agree 'DaveAllen' is a piece of work - being that unintelligible is something that can't be learned...it's a genuine talent.