Why does America need Secret Prisons?

[BigV]

Why does America need Secret Prisons?

Seriously, why?

I don't see how this can be positive, or even a net positive. Why "Secret"? Ok, the "secret" is out, for the ones we know about [/cynic - realist]. The only reason I can come up with is so that the operations of such a prison are carried out beyond the easy reach of American law. What the Fuck? We have American citizens, soldiers, government officials setup for the express purpose of doing things that would be illegal in our own country. Are you kidding me?

I've thought long and hard about this. I have not been able to resolve this conflict. I see circumstances where it appears to be justifiable--we need the information they have and the only way to get that information is to use techniques that aren't legal inside the US.

But doesn't that make us less? Are we not a nation of laws? And now the newest detainee bill is designed to codify, to make legal what was not legal before. Nyah nyah, you can't sue me, the prez says so.

So somebody explain to me why we need these secret prisons in foreign lands, please. And why do we need this detainee bill protecting interrogators from legal action if this all happens outside of our legal sphere anyway? The whole tautalogical mess stinks. Either make the actions legal and move them *here*. What's to fear? Or, keep the actions *there* and remain unrestricted by the bounds of American laws.

[glatt]

*crickets chirping*

[Bullitt]

or the feds are just sick of the ACLU ..
big brother doesn't tell whiney little brother what he's doing on saturday night, thus avoiding the crying and tantrums

Where else do you keep dissenters before you openly declare it a police state?

Hey, lots of great nations have or have had secret prisons. Look at Nazi Germany, for example, or the way Argentina "disappeared" all those people. What about the "killing fields" of Cambodia, and let's not forget Soviet Russia's Gulags.

Jeez, who's side are you on, anyhow? Don't you know that questions like yours just give aid and comfort to the enemy and demoralize our troops in Iraq?

Maybe you should be rounded up next, comrade.

[Beestie]

I'm generally suspicious of anyone who pre-emptively avoids scrutiny.

[tw]

Originally Posted by BigV

Why does America need Secret Prisons?

So that kidnapping and torture can occur without judicial review. The administration fears American laws and other fundamental American principles. Overseas prisons (such as Abu Ghriad, Guantanamo, and other secret locations) are where activities in direct violation of the US Constitution were hidden from honest, non-extremist, and politically independent Americans.

Just as scary are some in The Cellar who approve of laws and secret overseas torture chambers that violate American principles. We even discovered how the Ford Foundation has no credibility - and that George Jr is an honest man. Scary was political propaganda that even justified the 'Pearl Harboring' of Iraq. I make no excuses for seeing through those lies even five years ago, here, in the Cellar. I make no apologies for bluntly and openly challenging others here who still approve of torture and promote lies about 'unlawful enemy combatants'.

Why do we need secret prisons? Some in America are little different from Nazi Germans, ethnic cleansers, or the KKK. Justifications for those prisons are that scary. Also scary are how some politicians such as PA’s Rick Santorum approve and then get relected. Some even in the Cellar approved of wiretapping without judicial review - as if enemies where hiding all among us as Joseph McCarthy proclaimed.

I said years ago in the Cellar, "Nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition". Still this president hypes lies about a war on terrorism - and so many blindly believe. A "Spanish Inquisition" is why America needs secret prisions, laws to make torture legal, and laws so that the Supreme Court cannot protect basic human rights. All this even done in the name of god - as in post 15th Century Spain.

[xoxoxoBruce]

And why do we need this detainee bill protecting interrogators from legal action if this all happens outside of our legal sphere anyway?

Wasn't that created to protect them from the hague? You know, World Court...war crimes?
Would that infer they are planning some?

[Aliantha]

Originally Posted by marichiko

Hey, lots of great nations have or have had secret prisons. Look at Nazi Germany, for example, or the way Argentina "disappeared" all those people. What about the "killing fields" of Cambodia, and let's not forget Soviet Russia's Gulags.

Jeez, who's side are you on, anyhow? Don't you know that questions like yours just give aid and comfort to the enemy and demoralize our troops in Iraq?

Maybe you should be rounded up next, comrade.

So because others do it that makes it ok?

Hmmmm...I think I might go blow up a building...just cause someone else did it first.

This school of thought is incredibly dangerous and until people start to really realize this is a fact, there's no hope of ending these conflicts we're all in.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by BigV

Why does America need Secret Prisons?

Seriously, why?

I don't see how this can be positive, or even a net positive. Why "Secret"? Ok, the "secret" is out, for the ones we know about [/cynic - realist]. The only reason I can come up with is so that the operations of such a prison are carried out beyond the easy reach of American law. What the Fuck? We have American citizens, soldiers, government officials setup for the express purpose of doing things that would be illegal in our own country. Are you kidding me?

I've thought long and hard about this. I have not been able to resolve this conflict. I see circumstances where it appears to be justifiable--we need the information they have and the only way to get that information is to use techniques that aren't legal inside the US.

But doesn't that make us less? Are we not a nation of laws? And now the newest detainee bill is designed to codify, to make legal what was not legal before. Nyah nyah, you can't sue me, the prez says so.

So somebody explain to me why we need these secret prisons in foreign lands, please. And why do we need this detainee bill protecting interrogators from legal action if this all happens outside of our legal sphere anyway? The whole tautalogical mess stinks. Either make the actions legal and move them *here*. What's to fear? Or, keep the actions *there* and remain unrestricted by the bounds of American laws.

I feel your conflictedness, if that's a word.

If we apply American laws while we're in other countries, I wouldn't be able to go to Amsterdam and smoke weed with my hookers.

As the "good guys", we shouldn't break the Golden Rule - just goes to show you how Christian W actually is. We should LEAD the world as a role model. We should be able to respond with righteous indignation when our military personnel are mistreated. Instead, we lower ourselves and invite enemies to torture our people.

Experts in information collection have said that information gathered through torture is unreliable. I guess this administration disagrees. They seem to have their own expert opinions about so many things. Just as they were dead-on with their assessment that Iraqis would welcome us as liberators, they may be just as accurate when it comes to the information tortured out of people.

So, why secret prisons in other countries?

To hide the facts from the American people. Oops. The W administration knew that this behavior would be opposed by most Americans, and considered to be outside the law, but they wanted to do it anyway.

They have little regard for laws and the US Constitution.

If found out, they thought they would have plausible deniability. Oops. I guess they miscalculated there, too.

Originally Posted by Aliantha

So because others do it that makes it ok?

Hmmmm...I think I might go blow up a building...just cause someone else did it first.

This school of thought is incredibly dangerous and until people start to really realize this is a fact, there's no hope of ending these conflicts we're all in.

I see that you're relatively new here. If you hang around and read some of my other posts, you'll discover that most folks on this board consider me liberal to the point of being a Commie. I was being sarcastic in my post that you responded to.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

big snip of valid thoughts ~To hide the facts from the American people. ~ snip more valid thoughts

Only from the misguided lefties, that feel everyone should be treated fairly as human beings and accorded the equal treatment that damn meddling constitution suggests.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Only from the misguided lefties, that feel everyone should be treated fairly as human beings and accorded the equal treatment

Torture makes enemies. Torture resulted in lies after lies about "Orange Alert" attacks even on Newark's Prudential Buildling and San Francisco's Golden Gate Bridge. Professional interrogators say opposite of what 'big dics' insist. Useful intelligence is obtained by NOT using torture. Anyone with minimal intelligence instead of 'big dic' solution would know that.

A recent example of how 'no torture' does so much. Originally broadcast on 13 Sept 2006 on BBC 2 radio:

The jihadi who turned 'supergrass'
As [Nasir Abbas] was taken off for interrogation, he feared the worst.

"I believed that the police were very cruel and used torture to get their answers," he said.

But Mr Abbas was in for a surprise. He was treated with civility and Muslim respect.

He was also surprised that so much was known about him and was puzzled as to how his interrogators knew.

He was arrested one evening and kept silent until the following morning.

Then he decided to talk and help the police, because he thought it was God's will.

He said he felt "responsible, in front of God, to stop all these bad deeds."

From that point on, Mr Abbas tried to persuade his former comrades that their interpretation of the Koran was wrong.

He urges them to "return to the right path of Islamic teaching."

But he did much more than that.

He actively assisted the police in tracking down and arresting some of his former comrades and felt no guilt in doing so.

They tortured to the point of killing people and still could not find those weapons of mass destruction. But the ignorant still insist that torture is good. Good for masterbation - where torture is justified. Bad for preventing future terrorist attacks.

Any idiot knows that torture and human rights violations don't do anything useful.

Originally Posted by BigV
Why does America need Secret Prisons?
Seriously, why?

Seriously, there are legitimate tactical uses for secret prisons when they are used as an exception to the rule rather than as the rule. For example, say we capture a high value soft target and the enemy is unable to determine whether that person is dead or alive. We can toll the time limitations on the enemy's contingency plans for the loss of their operative. This may work to our advantage. Denying the enemy additional knowledge about the capture (e.g. who effected the capture, which government detains the captured, and where that person is detained) may help keep the enemy from identifying and taking hostages whom they believe would be useful in bartering for release of their operative. The same applies to other retaliatory measures. There are other open source examples for the legitimate use of secret prisons if you do the research; however, it would be inappropriate for me to go any further.

The current application for secret prisons likely stems from changes in the nature of warfare which essentially renders the conventions we've entered into moot. How many people actually believe that, when push comes to shove, those conventions will be observed by anyone including the signatories? Do we really have anything significant to loose (i.e. how many American lives is your self respect worth)? Certainly, the current Administration has opted for the lowest common denominator. This has negatively impacted our worldwide credibility; but, that damage has been weighed against the potential damage resulting from not availing ourselves of strategic opportunities. Until now, civilian employees of our government have operated in a gray area. The "Laws of Land Warfare" were written for combatants (who are well defined). Non-combatants (i.e. spies, e.g. CIA) are not protected by those conventions. If they are not protected, what do they have to lose by not abiding by those conventions? That's one way of looking at it.

Another way is to have everyone abide by the conventions that we've entered into. All military personnel are taught [mandatory training] that those conventions have the same legal affect, wherever they are, as Amendments to the Constitution. That's why military personnel can be prosecuted for violating those conventions even if they are ordered to do so. For the Armed Forces, it's pretty much cut and dry. Now, Congress has defined the responsibilities of all government service organizations.

Secret prisons have applications beyond engaging in torture. In the case of torture that shocks the conscience, I concur with tw's statement:

Any idiot knows that torture and human rights violations don't do anything useful.

"VIOLENCE, THE LAST REFUGE OF THE UNINTELLIGENT."

[Undertoad]

Not sure I'm in favor of it, but it does appear to actually work and work well, violating the Cellar's notion that torture is ineffective.
The Case for Waterboarding

Take, for instance, the case of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed captured in Pakistan in March of 2003. One of the masterminds of 9/11 and al-Qaeda’s operational leader at the time, he possessed a wide-ranging knowledge of the network’s plans, logistics and personnel. Unwilling to share it voluntarily, he was subjected to forced interrogation. As resilient as he was and defiant, he held out until the interrogators decided to proceed with waterboarding. Two and a half minutes into the procedure, a broken Mohammed begged for relief. Stunned and shaken, his extensive confession amounted to nothing less than a treasure trove of priceless intelligence.

This case is unusual not in how quickly the waterboarding worked, but how long Mohammed was able to withstand it. Two and a half minutes is by all accounts a record of sorts, as most subjects usually break down inside a minute. CIA agents who undergo this procedure as part of their training rarely last more than 40 seconds. This despite the fact that they are in a friendly environment and know that death is not an option.

Although waterboarding is normally employed as the last resort and the frequency of its use kept secret, it has been made known that so far it has worked every time it has been tried. Thanks to its extraordinary efficacy, we have been able to obtain a great amount of critical intelligence that would have otherwise remained inaccessible. With the help of this information we have captured al-Qaeda operatives, stopped deadly plots, and saved many innocent lives. One of the fruits of Mohammed’s confession, to give one example, was the thwarting of a conspiracy to fly an airliner into the Library Tower, the tallest building in Los Angeles.

Given these facts, it is almost incomprehensible that there are some people in this country who insist that we relinquish this life-saving tool. Resting their objections on ethical grounds, they try to convince us that the procedure is morally unacceptable. But theirs is a misguided stance, since careful consideration shows that waterboarding is in fact one of the least injurious among interrogation techniques.